Rick Warren & Muslims???

[mandym]

IF he stated and holds to islam Allah same as the christian god though...

isn't that heretical by itself?

When did he say that? Do you have a source?

 

[DaChaser1]

I see this thread is personal, and really doesn't have anything to do with the latest "chrislam" accusation, does it?

As with any other church model, I eat the cherry and spit out the seeds. Nobody is going to agree 100% on any model...but to slander a man God is using to reach many is reprehensible.

I am not personally attacking Rick, but will say that IF he really holds to the Godof Bible same as Allah, that is VERY wrong!

 

[Don]

You are right. Moslems do not believe that Jesus was God. They do not believe in the Trinity. In fact their criticism of Christianity here is that we believe in three gods where as they say there is only one God. Christians would agree there is only one God, but that he has been manifest to us in three ways. Obviously they will not accept the statement that, "the trinity is a mystery."

Islam considers Jesus as one of the great prophets alongside Noah, Abraham, Moses and Muhammad. They also believe Jesus was the messiah. They believe Mary was a virgin. They believe in the miracles of Jesus. They do not believe that Christ was crucified, but that he appeared to have been. My understanding is they make no attempt to say who was really crucified. They do believe Jesus took the sins of the world on himself. They do believe in the return of Christ but their take is different on his return. [I need to do more research on this.] They believe that Jesus' message was for only the "lost sheep of Israel," whereas Mohammad's message was for all mankind.

There is probably much more about what Islam says about Mohammad versus Jesus and perhaps there a someone more knowledgable on the BB than I who can enlighten us.

You may recall from some of my past posts that I spent a year in Afghanistan. In my dealings with my Afghan interpreters and Afghan counterparts, not once--in an entire year--did they acknowledge Jesus as anything more than just a prophet; and Mohammed is considered a greater prophet than Jesus.

Consider this, Crab: there is a hadith teaching against the drawing of people; and drawing Mohammed, especially caricatures of Mohammed, causes devout muslims to call for the death of the artist.

Have you ever seen a similar call from muslims regarding caricatures of Jesus?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Warren is the consumate MISSIOLOGIST and that is the most misunderstood aspect of his ministry.

What he does would be lauded if done in a foreign land, but do it here in the United States and it is labeled as heresy.

That issue is not what causes my concern.

It is holding to the belief that christians and muslims worship the same god. If we are going to accept the Muslims counterfiet god as being true, we will then have to do a WHOLE LOT of apologising to the Mormons, Jehovahs witnesses, scientologists, moonies, etc etc...

 

[Crabtownboy]

That issue is not what causes my concern.

It is holding to the belief that christians and muslims worship the same god. If we are going to accept the Muslims counterfiet god as being true, we will then have to do a WHOLE LOT of apologising to the Mormons, Jehovahs witnesses, scientologists, moonies, etc etc...

Do Moslems believe in Abraham? Yes
Do Moslems accept the Old Testament? Yes
Do Moslems believe that Jesus was the messiah? Yes
Do Moslems believe that Jesus will return? Yes
Do Moslems believe as Christians do that there is only one God? Yes
Do Moslems believe in the virgin birth of Jesus? Yes
Do Moselms believe in predestination? Yes
Do Moslems believe in an after life in heaven? Yes
Do Moselms believe in hell? Yes
Do Moslems believe that Christ will return? Yes

Do Moselms have the same understanding of God as Christians? No
Do Moslems believe in the divinity of Christ? No


I do not see how you can say they do not worship, even in error, the same God as we do.

In your opinion, do all who call themselves Christian worship the same God?

What groups do you believe worship the same God as you?

 

[mandym]

What exactly is the purpose of your post?

To derail this thread into one of his pet issues.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

reconsidered

 

[Don]

Do Moslems believe in Abraham? Yes
Do Moslems accept the Old Testament? Yes
Do Moslems believe that Jesus was the messiah? Yes
Do Moslems believe that Jesus will return? Yes
Do Moslems believe as Christians do that there is only one God? Yes
Do Moslems believe in the virgin birth of Jesus? Yes
Do Moselms believe in predestination? Yes
Do Moslems believe in an after life in heaven? Yes
Do Moselms believe in hell? Yes
Do Moslems believe that Christ will return? Yes

Do Moselms have the same understanding of God as Christians? No
Do Moslems believe in the divinity of Christ? No


I do not see how you can say they do not worship, even in error, the same God as we do.

In your opinion, do all who call themselves Christian worship the same God?

What groups do you believe worship the same God as you?

And this was the point of my line of responses to you: How can YOU say they worship the same god as we do, if they deny that Jesus is God?

Either Jesus is God in the flesh, or He's not; either John 3:16 is correct, or it's not. If it is, then no muslim is going to heaven.

Which do you believe?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Crabtown boy..

I am just going to boil it down to the "nitty gritty" as they say.

Yes, they agree with us on a lot of areas. There is no dought about that.

But...

My undertanding is that they catagorically DENY....

1) The Doctrine of the Triune nature of God.

2) The Lordship of Jesus Christ (they will not confess Him as Lord)

3) Justification by faith alone in Christ alone.

The denial of three 3 truthes alone condemn them, and render as meaningless anything else that they agree with us on.

They are a false religion, they worship a false God, and they are hell bound if they do not come to thier senses, repent, from their false religion, and become born again christians.

 

[blackbird]

Do Moslems believe in Abraham? Yes
Do Moslems accept the Old Testament? Yes
Do Moslems believe that Jesus was the messiah? Yes
Do Moslems believe that Jesus will return? Yes
Do Moslems believe as Christians do that there is only one God? Yes
Do Moslems believe in the virgin birth of Jesus? Yes
Do Moselms believe in predestination? Yes
Do Moslems believe in an after life in heaven? Yes
Do Moselms believe in hell? Yes
Do Moslems believe that Christ will return? Yes

Do Moselms have the same understanding of God as Christians? No
Do Moslems believe in the divinity of Christ? No


I do not see how you can say they do not worship, even in error, the same God as we do.

In your opinion, do all who call themselves Christian worship the same God?

What groups do you believe worship the same God as you?

Islam is antichrist!!!

End of story!

 

[righteousdude2]

Thanks...

You may recall from some of my past posts that I spent a year in Afghanistan. In my dealings with my Afghan interpreters and Afghan counterparts, not once--in an entire year--did they acknowledge Jesus as anything more than just a prophet; and Mohammed is considered a greater prophet than Jesus.

Consider this, Crab: there is a hadith teaching against the drawing of people; and drawing Mohammed, especially caricatures of Mohammed, causes devout muslims to call for the death of the artist.

Have you ever seen a similar call from muslims regarding caricatures of Jesus?

...for posting the truth. Whether Crab will accept and acknowledge this is another thing, but you are a first hand witness of what those in that religion believe and practice. :thumbsup:

 

[righteousdude2]

Stick Around Fans, Don't Change that Station...

Islam is antichrist!!!

End of story!

....it will be interesting to see what CTB has in the form of rebuttal, now that he's been pushed into the corner.

And now a Word from our sponsor: the true, and only God, Jehovah! raying:

 

[Don]

...for posting the truth. Whether Crab will accept and acknowledge this is another thing, but you are a first hand witness of what those in that religion believe and practice. :thumbsup:

Here's the other part of that: muslims aren't really any different than any other religion. You've got those that are fanatical, those that are devout, those that sit in the pews, and those that are muslim because their parents were muslim, and/or their friends are muslim.

One guy who goes to mosque every Friday, but the first question out of his mouth to non-Afghan contractors is: How much will you pay me to allow you to work here?

Another who, once you get chummy with him, will show you which drawer in his desk he keeps his bottle of Scotch in.

For a country that's 70% illiterate, they sure know how to find Facebook and porn sites on their computers.

And then you've got the guy who gives Allah all the praise for everything that happens, and frowns at all the ones I mentioned previously.

We had 10 interpreters; only one of them performed his 5-times-a-day prayers.

Doesn't that sound like the kind of "I believe in God" mix of people we have with catholics, lutherans, and even baptists?

Someone wants to bring in what muslims think of Jesus as some sort of justification about what Rick Warren is doing; well, nah, ain't gonna cut it. The truth is, we don't worship the same god.

I worship the God who became flesh and sacrificed Himself on the cross for me. Muslims don't.

 

[SolaSaint]

Please check out this link:

http://airocross.com/2012/02/28/john-piper-on-rick-warrens-chrislam/

 

[Crabtownboy]

You may recall from some of my past posts that I spent a year in Afghanistan. In my dealings with my Afghan interpreters and Afghan counterparts, not once--in an entire year--did they acknowledge Jesus as anything more than just a prophet; and Mohammed is considered a greater prophet than Jesus.

No they would not acknowledge that Christ is more than a prophet. Jesus is considered a great prophet and the messiah. I would like to know more about what they mean when they say messiah.

You are right. Mohammed is considered a greater prophet. In this they are in great error. I do not believe Mohammed was a prophet.

Consider this, Crab: there is a hadith teaching against the drawing of people; and drawing Mohammed, especially caricatures of Mohammed, causes devout muslims to call for the death of the artist.

You are correct. I believe this belief for them comes from the 10 commandments, specifically the on about not having graven images.

Have you ever seen a similar call from muslims regarding caricatures of Jesus?

No, I haven't. I have not looked for them. If any Moslem drew a caricature of Christ that person would be violating the commandment. I am not saying it does not happen, but I have not seen it.

If you have a link to a web site with such caricatures I would like to view it.

I met a Moslem woman from Jordan and we had a good discussion about Christ. She said all true Moslems love Jesus. Those were her words. Unfortunately she also believes that Mohammed is greater.

She earned a masters degree in from the Center for Justice and Peacemaking at the Eastern Mennonite University in Harrisonburg, VA.

I have also talked with Arab Christians at the seminary in Prague who came from Lebanon and Israel. They also say that true Moslems hold Christ in high regard.

The sad fact is while they may hold Christ in high regard they are so much in error in many ways, IMHO.

There is much misunderstanding of Islam by Christians and much ignorance. I am not an expert, but I know that most Moslems are not as portrayed by many posters on the BB.

 

[DaChaser1]

Do Moslems believe in Abraham? Yes
Do Moslems accept the Old Testament? Yes
Do Moslems believe that Jesus was the messiah? Yes
Do Moslems believe that Jesus will return? Yes
Do Moslems believe as Christians do that there is only one God? Yes
Do Moslems believe in the virgin birth of Jesus? Yes
Do Moselms believe in predestination? Yes
Do Moslems believe in an after life in heaven? Yes
Do Moselms believe in hell? Yes
Do Moslems believe that Christ will return? Yes

Do Moselms have the same understanding of God as Christians? No
Do Moslems believe in the divinity of Christ? No


I do not see how you can say they do not worship, even in error, the same God as we do.

In your opinion, do all who call themselves Christian worship the same God?

What groups do you believe worship the same God as you?

their 'revelations" the prophet received were from the Devil, as denied the cardinal truths of trinity, Jesus is God, death on cross as atoner, and that salvation found no name!

 

[Amy.G]

I do not see how you can say they do not worship, even in error, the same God as we do.

They preach a different gospel. Period.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was necessary for me to write unto you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

 

[glfredrick]

They preach a different gospel. Period.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was necessary for me to write unto you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Duh... Thus the reason for evangelization, which is Warren's context.

The presumption I've mostly see expressed here on the board so far is that it is simply better to leave all those millions of people to die in their sin because we disagree with them and because they have a perverted book that doesn't portray accurately all that the Bible of Christains does.

What a silly notion, and what a SINFUL notion, all because a counterfeit book leads people astray from the one true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph.

The larger point here, Warren aside, is that the "concept" of "Allah" remains the same for the God of the Bible or for the god of the Koran. As the Koran is nothing more than a perversion of the Scriptures of Judeo-Christian origin, they "might" be used to instill the very basic concepts of God into Muslim adherents, for they -- like many (or even most) in Christendom -- do not understand their own scriptures but rather follow religious leaders and teachers who may also not understand their own religious writings. A careful apologist for Christianity can present many tenets of pure Christian doctrine FROM the Koran which can, under the leadership of the Holy Spirit, cause the Muslim listener to investigate further the claims of the true Scriptures.

 

[Crabtownboy]

their 'revelations" the prophet received were from the Devil, as denied the cardinal truths of trinity, Jesus is God, death on cross as atoner, and that salvation found no name!

I agree they do not believe in the trinity. I mentioned that in another post. They do not understand and say that Christians who believe in the trinity believe in three gods not one God.

They do not believe that it was Christ who died on the cross. At least that is my understanding and they use various Old Testament scriptures to back up their claim.

Here are examples they use:

GOD Almighty will hear his cries (Psalm 91:15) and will save him (Psalm 91:3).

GOD Almighty will cover him with His Protection (Psalm 91:4).

Christ will then not have any fear in him (Psalm 91:5).

I believe Christ did die on the cross, was raised and that he took our sins on himself so that we might be saved.

On salvation my understanding is that basically they believe in a salvation by works. I believe that salvation by works is incorrect. I do believe that a person's works show their faith. Thus, to me Moslem extremists works show they are not good Moslems just as Christian extremists, say in Northern Ireland who take part in murders and violent activities, are not good Christians.

 

[SolaSaint]

I'm sorry I have to speak again: gl---I cannot believe you are proposing that Christians use the Koran to witness to Muslims. How can you use a false book to teach truth? Please be very careful unless you become a Muslim. Satan is very powerful and will use the Koran to convert you.

The Scriptures quoted in Jude talk about the faith once delivered that we are to contend for. This is the Gospel, not Muslim scripture.