Rick Warren & Muslims???

[SolaSaint]

glfred,

Growing the largest church is not the test for being right or winning a prize. Pragmatism is what Warren uses in his church growth procedures, and not necessarily good doctrinal methods. I wouldn't want to belong to a church that is half full of members who are there because you can wear flip flops or because the music is cool or because the preacher never preaches on the blood of Christ.

 

[righteousdude2]

Size Doesn't Matter when it Concerns...

I know how you must feel... Unlike both Billys, Rick has actually grown the largest BAPTIST church in America. :thumbs:

...salvation! Billy and Billy have led, literally, millions to Christ, and one mega-church will never do that.

However, I thank you for trying to see my side of the post!

 

[righteousdude2]

Thanks, I See Some Similarities...

I would estimate that maybe 30% of the content is credible and profitable, with the the other70% consisting of information that you should take with a grain of salt.

And they will try and sell you stuff :tonofbricks:

....to the stuff Osteen, Schuller, Robertson, Hinn, Warren, Duplantis, TBN, Jakes, and others are making millions off of their works! This is wrong because it comes down to them selling something that God gave them at the cost of His Son's life! It's like God gave the gift, and in turn mega-ministries are making a killing off the preaching of God's inspiration!

Is it right for believers to profit from the propagation of the Gospel??? IMHO, I don't think so!

One thing to keep in mind about Graham, and his staff, they never made exorbitant salaries (like others who use their ministries offerings, side jobs, speaking engagements, books, etc.), although they certainly could have. I can't say that for some of those mentioned above.

Again, I don't begrudge them for making a living at what they were called to do, but, mega seems to be going overbaord, because it means huge offerings and other avenues through which they can profit, while the average church, on any corner in the USA just barely keeps the lights on.

They certainly deserve to be richly rewarded for what they are masterminding and leading. I just think it is wrong for these preachers and their ministries to live in luxury while many come to their ministries, or watch their network and in turn live in poverty, or close to it. :flower:

 

[gb93433]

All my heroes are evangelistic in nature. And while RW may be evangelistic, his form of evangelism is not my cup of tea! SORRY....

RW's story is that he sought to be a missionary to Japan but God would not let him.

 

[righteousdude2]

Now that is...

RW's story is that he sought to be a missionary to Japan but God would not let him.

...something I didn't know. I have tremendous respect for anyone who leaves the comfort of America and goes to another country and culture to share the Gospel! Who knows, with some things going to a little differently in RW's life, he may have written the PDL in Japaneese!

 

[seekingthetruth]

RW to me is the epitome of what is wrong with churches today.

Too much political correctness and not enough scripture.

John

 

[righteousdude2]

You Hit the Out-of-the-Park...

RW to me is the epitome of what is wrong with churches today.

Too much political correctness and not enough scripture.

John

Without seeming judgmental, I'd have to agree with your view.

 

[glfredrick]

...salvation! Billy and Billy have led, literally, millions to Christ, and one mega-church will never do that.

However, I thank you for trying to see my side of the post!

Just wondering where area all their millions? By the Graham association statistics they are seeing about a 2% rate of return for their evangelistic efforts. Certainly not a number to be set aside as worthless, but not pointing to "millions" either.

Oh, and BTW, I have met and worked with Billy Graham. I was part of the advance team that prepared for the event and which prepared local congregations of all types to recieve the people when the Crusade came to Louisville. The follow up after the event indicated that there was barely a notable addition to any congregation in the city post-crusade. I was also on the field as a counselor after each session. Most of the people in attendance were already church-goers who were out to see their hero. The distinct lack of lost people in attendence was our greatest regret and it was palpable.

Warren is a different sort of evangelist than either of the "Billys". He is a missionary to his community in California. He founded his church on general evangelical, and in particular SBC mission principles instead of just working to extend a vitually non-existent church in that area as is the more typical means of planting a new congregation. He rightly understands that the call to evangelize also includes a call -- from Christ Himself -- to disciple the new converts so that they too will evangelize.

He has seen tremedous growth and yes, he does in fact preach the gospel according to the Scriptures as his primary means to evangelism. There is no other way. That some mistake using missional tactics (found in the Bible, BTW) to make the gospel easier to hear, because it is spoken in a manner that resonates with the target audience, does not mean that the gospel has been softened or removed. We can -- and ought -- remove EVERY hurdle that surrounds the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ EXCEPT the hurdle OF the cross and resurrection, which is precisely what Warren has done.

 

[gb93433]

RW to me is the epitome of what is wrong with churches today.

Almost two years ago I dealt with a church that was plagued with antagonists and one of them brought demonic oppression in the church. Not one of the leaders had the guts to call it what it was. We were dealing with a false teacher. When I called him out on it and asked him questions he started shaking. The whimpy leaders would not take a stance for what is right. They preferred to take the role of counselors. So I told them that they no longer needed me. The church and property has been sold.

The estimates I have read in the last 2 years is that 70-80 percent are plagued by antagonists. That hardly has anything to with RW. What percentage of churches have leaders who take the leaders in training to do evangelism as Jesus taught His disciples by sending them out two by two. None of that has anything to do with RW.

The problem with churches today is that they are led by leaders who want a social club and pastors who want a job. Where are the prophets who will stand for righteousness even if it means they are run out of town?

 

[gb93433]

...salvation! Billy and Billy have led, literally, millions to Christ, and one mega-church will never do that.

If you will listen to the message at http://turret2.discipleshiplibrary.com/1A.mp3

and you will learn what Billy Graham thought.

Multiplication will reach many more than any evangelist by addition.

 

[righteousdude2]

I Don't Mean to Rain on Your Parade, but...

Just wondering where area all their millions? By the Graham association statistics they are seeing about a 2% rate of return for their evangelistic efforts. Certainly not a number to be set aside as worthless, but not pointing to "millions" either.

Oh, and BTW, I have met and worked with Billy Graham. I was part of the advance team that prepared for the event and which prepared local congregations of all types to recieve the people when the Crusade came to Louisville. The follow up after the event indicated that there was barely a notable addition to any congregation in the city post-crusade. I was also on the field as a counselor after each session. Most of the people in attendance were already church-goers who were out to see their hero. The distinct lack of lost people in attendence was our greatest regret and it was palpable.

Warren is a different sort of evangelist than either of the "Billys". He is a missionary to his community in California. He founded his church on general evangelical, and in particular SBC mission principles instead of just working to extend a vitually non-existent church in that area as is the more typical means of planting a new congregation. He rightly understands that the call to evangelize also includes a call -- from Christ Himself -- to disciple the new converts so that they too will evangelize.

He has seen tremedous growth and yes, he does in fact preach the gospel according to the Scriptures as his primary means to evangelism. There is no other way. That some mistake using missional tactics (found in the Bible, BTW) to make the gospel easier to hear, because it is spoken in a manner that resonates with the target audience, does not mean that the gospel has been softened or removed. We can -- and ought -- remove EVERY hurdle that surrounds the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ EXCEPT the hurdle OF the cross and resurrection, which is precisely what Warren has done.

...according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham) there have been more than three million persons respond to his invitations over the years.

And BGEA began an international evangelism project in 2002 called My Hope, in which local believers invite friends, neighbors and relatives to their homes to watch a national telecast featuring Billy or Franklin Graham, translated into their language. The project has seen more than 9.8 million people make decisions for Christ since its inception. SEE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham_Evangelistic_Association

And for you information, I too worked with the BGEA in Costa Mesa. My wife and I did a pre-crusade concert at a BGEA rally set for that region to train counselors, and coordinate follow up services.

I guess we are both on the same train, except I think the numbers provided in Wikipedia by the BGEA are closer to being right, than what you have been given. So I stand by my original statement, that Billy will be responsible for more coming to Jesus (in his lifetime) that RW will ever hope to have.

 

[preachinjesus]

This thread is about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. Time to put it, and us, out of its misery.

 

[preachinjesus]

I pray God will convict you of your liberalness.

lol...worth the price of reading all the posts in this thread...

So, out of all of the infinite things you could have said to us, people you'll see in Heaven one day, this is what you came up with as a closing thought? Dude, really?

 

[Alive in Christ]

jlfredrick

Oh, and BTW, I have met and worked with Billy Graham. I was part of the advance team that prepared for the event and which prepared local congregations of all types to recieve the people when the Crusade came to Louisville.

My ex wife and I were at that crusade. I thought it was awesome. I was blessed.

 

[SolaSaint]

lol...worth the price of reading all the posts in this thread...

So, out of all of the infinite things you could have said to us, people you'll see in Heaven one day, this is what you came up with as a closing thought? Dude, really?

You must know you're a liberal since you responded. I pray you will turn from it.

 

[glfredrick]

jlfredrick



My ex wife and I were at that crusade. I thought it was awesome. I was blessed.

Then you would have seen some of what I saw. LOTS of saved people in attendance to see one of their heros in the faith plus a bunch of great Christian musicians, etc. Not so many lost persons, however...

 

[DaChaser1]

i'm surprised that the true leader if much of this Rick Warren hating has not yet been brought to light in this thread. Everything "seems" to stem from Jack Van Impe, who seems to now make tearing down Rick Warren and Saddleback his main goal in life.

Way to represent the gospel Jack... :BangHead:

Can we apply the test of a false prophet to Van Impe? Would be fun to see how it goes.

Think the main problem some of us here have with pastor rick is that he "appears' to be too accomodating to other faiths and lifestyles at times, and that His senior church staff seemsto be contridicting him quite a bit!

Don't think it makes us a "hatter" if we are just seeking to find which is telling the truth on this issue, either pastor Rick or his staff!

 

[gb93433]

Don't think it makes us a "hatter" if we are just seeking to find which is telling the truth on this issue, either pastor Rick or his staff!

The real question is how much time do RW's critics spend in Bible study to learn the truth of scripture compared to following his statements?

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

 

[webdog]

The real question is how much time do RW's critics spend in Bible study to learn the truth of scripture compared to following his statements?

Not as much time as they spend scouring the internet digging up dirt and posting slanderous posts wherever they can.

 

[gb93433]

Not as much time as they spend scouring the internet digging up dirt and posting slanderous posts wherever they can.

Could that be the reason why the people in the pew do not take scripture seriously? I wonder what their devotional life is like? The message at http://turret2.discipleshiplibrary.com/1A.mp3 paints a rather dismal picture and that was in the early 1950's. The preacher noted that out of 29 prospective missionaries only one was satisfied with their devotional life.