Rick Warren & "Resisters", Those Believers Who Refuse To Change

Are you perfect and holy? There are several verses in the Bible which likewise instructs to be thus.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Go back and read through these 10 pages. There were hardly "credible views", only opinions, and yes, the man's character was called into question (as it is a lot here), not to mention anyone who *gasp* saw PDL any different than they.

I'm sorry you felt my posts were less than kind, I didn't see it that way. I thought they were just to the point.

 

I see...so you cling to one verse that says "nobody seeks God", and throw out the rest to seek Him where He can be found, reason together with Him, etc? It helps to know who the "nobody" is in context.

 

A lost world seeks a lot of things. Many seek after Christ even though they themselves aren't sure what it is they seek. A Seeker-sensitive church is one that makes the gospel accessible to these people.

Would you travel to mexico and distribute english Bibles? No, hopefully, you would distribute spanish Bibles as that is the common language of the people there. Seeker-sensitive churches preach the gospel in a way that will be heard by a seeker.

 

Thanks for the reply! Iron sharpens iron! Who knows but we may all come to some mutual understanding of what scripture demands and clarifies as 'truth' if we continue!!

 

Most Bible Scholars, whether they be Calvinist or Arminian, will state that if you have a verse that implies something and then another verse that explicitly states something, that the explicit statement should be given more strength. I see no verse in the Bible that explicitly states that lost people seek after God. Do you?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Agreed! In fact scripture clearly states, There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:11,12

No one has any interest in spiritual things until God regenerates their heart!

 

James 4:4-10 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

 

Romans 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

 

Psalm 53 does explicitly state something (Paul's quote). It states that "the fool" who says in his heart "there is no God" will not seek God. These are the vile, corrupt non-seekers who don't understand.

I put even more weight on words from God Himself. When He says..."seek Me" and "come now, let us reason together".

 

I see. There are two problems that I see with your reasoning:

1. You are putting more weight in implied statements and less weight in the explicit teaching of the Bible.

and

2. Please forgive me if I misunderstand you, but it sounds to me as if you are claiming that Romans 3 is not the Words of God himself. I believe the entire Bible is inspired by God, and is therefore, the very Words of God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Exactly, he is showing clearly that God finds His own, they dont find Him!

James was writing to believers, telling them how to be humble before their God!

 

1. There is nothing "implied" by the words from God..."Seek Me."

2. I do believe all Scripture is divine. There is no getting around direct quotes from God Himself, or using sholarly logic to negate the true meaning of "nobody". I could ask you the same thing, why do you hold one verse that is God's Word, over many other verses that are God's Word?

 

If God finds His own, why can't He use Saddleback, PDL to do this? Why are we commanded to go out into all the world...if He does the finding?

 

But, it says "I was found of them...."

I realize James is written to believers.

 

1. The implication came from you that lost mankind will actually seek God without God drawing them. There is no explicit statement of that anywhere in the Bible.

2. I don't. I just don't read my own theological implications into God's word. I, instead, rely on what is explicitly taught in the Word of God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Romans 9 : 20, 21

 

God is clearly showing that even though commanded to seek Him no one does so! They only seek their own desires and are only able to choose according to their nature, which is sin!

No man comes to God unless the Holy Spirit draws him!!

 

It also says that those who found him did not seek him. So, the obivous question is, how did they find him when they were not seeking him. What do you think?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Romans 10:14-21 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.