Rick Warren & "Resisters", Those Believers Who Refuse To Change

[Dale-c]

The "disease" is the person who wants to do what they have always done, which ends in results they have always gotten.

Wait....what is wrong with that? Doing what they have always done is only bad IF what they have always done is bad.

Sounds simple I know.

Growth is NOT the end all of our problems.
Getting unregenerate people into the church is NOT progress.

 

[Dale-c]

According to who...you? God makes the rules, and if He says it can and is both ways, who are you to argue?

According to the Bible, which we do not agree on.
You think the Bible says man has some good, or at least ability on his own to choose God. I say, as do many others that the Bible says nothing of the sort.

As long as we disagree on that point, we will not agree on others.

 

[webdog]

I do pray that God will drop the scales from his eyes and that those who are caught up in his false teachings and man centered theology will open their eyes and see the truth of the Bible.

I pray the same thing for you and those who continue to demean RW, that you guys will drop the flower based theology, and see what he is trying to accomplish.

It isn't me, however, who we should even be discussing since I am not the one who wished death on those who disagree with me.

If this is in regards to Warren, that is a flat out lie, and you know it.

I am not the fundamentalist extremist who declared a jihad on the infidel resistors.

Maybe not fundamentalist, but extremist cannot be discounted.

 

[webdog]

You think the Bible says man has some good, or at least ability on his own to choose God. I say, as do many others that the Bible says nothing of the sort.

Strawman III

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Wait....what is wrong with that? Doing what they have always done is only bad IF what they have always done is bad.

Sounds simple I know.

Growth is NOT the end all of our problems.
Getting unregenerate people into the church is NOT progress.

Doing what is Scriptural is always good whether the lost world likes it or not.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Jarthur001]

and see what he is trying to accomplish.

You said it well...

 

[webdog]

Wait....what is wrong with that? Doing what they have always done is only bad IF what they have always done is bad.

*lightbulb* You are starting to get it...

Growth is NOT the end all of our problems.

You are preaching to the choir.

Getting unregenerate people into the church is NOT progress.

Getting unregenerate people to hear the Gospel IS progress, regardless where!

 

[webdog]

You said it well...

I know, you just don't know what it is, and continue to attack his methods.

 

[Dale-c]

Strawman III

Which means what?

Responding to a post with "strawman" is not dealing with what i said. It is AVOIDING what I said. If I am so clearly wrong, then it should be quite easy to discount what I have said.

 

[Jarthur001]

I know, you just don't know what it is, and continue to attack his methods.

Do not kid yourself and think you are the all knowing and I know nothing. I'm not the smartest guy in the world..and yes you may have a few more smarts then me. But I do UNDERSTAND what HE...yes HE is doing...and see "what he is trying to accomplish" not God...and this is why i disagree.

 

[webdog]

Do not kid yourself and think you are the all knowing and I know nothing. I'm not the smartest guy in the world..and yes you may have a few more smarts then me. But I do UNDERSTAND what HE...yes HE is doing...and see "what he is trying to accomplish" not God...and this is why i disagree.

James, don't belittle me. I never claimed to be "all knowing", but I am quite aware of the PDL, PDC and Saddleback, so I do UNDERSTAND what HE...yes HE is doing, and quite frankly, you do not, or refuse to support it because of what the five purposes do to the five petals of your flower. I have yet to meet a calvinist who agrees with Warren, as is evident from this thread.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

James, don't belittle me. I never claimed to be "all knowing", but I am quite aware of the PDL, PDC and Saddleback, so I do UNDERSTAND what HE...yes HE is doing, and quite frankly, you do not, or refuse to support it because of what the five purposes do to the five petals of your flower. I have yet to meet a calvinist who agrees with Warren, as is evident from this thread.

And I have yet to meet a Warrenite who agrees with the Bible as is evident in this thread. As we are now throwing insults back and forth and not discussing issues, I am now finished with the conversation.

Joseph Botwinick:wavey:

 

[webdog]

And I have yet to meet a Warrenite who agrees with the Bible as is evident in this thread. As we are now throwing insults back and forth and not discussing issues, I am now finished with the conversation.

Joseph Botwinick:wavey:

I'm not a "warrenite", but I do agree with the Bible. What is really evident to me is the self righteous attitudes of those who disagree with RW. Is RW perfect? Of course not, but neither are you and I.

 

[Jarthur001]

James, don't belittle me. I never claimed to be "all knowing", but I am quite aware of the PDL, PDC and Saddleback, so I do UNDERSTAND what HE...yes HE is doing, and quite frankly, you do not, or refuse to support it because of what the five purposes do to the five petals of your flower. I have yet to meet a calvinist who agrees with Warren, as is evident from this thread.

webdog....i do. I know you think I do not. But I do. I really do know. I understand. I disagree. Becuase I disagree, this is the 2nd time you have said.."I do not understand". Believe me..i know 1st hand. It is clear..that you have fallen for the very idea he puts forth. If they do not agree with me...they are wrong..and must be removed.

Believe it or not..there are other ways to run a church. I know this may shock you...and just because I do not agree with rick....please do not remove me. OK?
please do not say.."I don't understand". OK?


Thanks..

 

[webdog]

It is clear..that you have fallen for the very idea he puts forth. If they do not agree with me...they are wrong..and must be removed.

I haven't "fallen" for anything, and do not see the terminator approach you are taking.

Believe it or not..there are other ways to run a church.

Never said there wasn't, and if you really did know what was in PDC, you wouldnt' have made this comment.

I know this may shock you...and just because I do not agree with rick....please do not remove me. OK?

It probably shocks you to think that maybe...just maybe you might be wrong about something, and you just can't bring yourself to admit it. Back on page 1 or 2 I asked for Scripture that disproves RW's ministry, his church, and his doctrine. I'm still waiting...

please do not say.."I don't understand". OK?

OK. Your "understanding is flawed".

 

[Dale-c]

And I have yet to meet a Warrenite who agrees with the Bible as is evident in this thread. As we are now throwing insults back and forth and not discussing issues, I am now finished with the conversation.

As I have posted, if you believe that Man chooses God, you are likely to think more highly of Warren.
If you believe that it is God that Chooses man, then you are very likely to resist warrens teachings.
Quite simple. That is where our paths diverge.

WebDog, as long as we differ on this issue, we are not likely to ever agree on PDL.

 

[Jarthur001]

OK. Your "understanding is flawed".

May God Bless you webdog

 

[Lagardo]

This discussion is all over the map. It can harldy be said if the topic at hand is PDL or PDC and I'm willing to bet there are some that don't see a difference.

Having been on staff at a PD church, I have a few opinions. I also have a friend on staff at Saddleback (don't get too excited, that's a big staff...he doesn't share an office with Rick or anything) so I know a little of the actual implementation of PDC.

I've read and heard a fair bit on transitioning a church to PD. This is usually something Rick tends to advise against. Forgive me for not having the exact reference, but I blieve that in PDC he actually says that transitioning to PD from a church with more than 50 people is a bad idea. Now, those skeptical of Warren's methods are usually on the lookout for someone to attempt a transition. Furthermore, regardless of most of Warren's warnings about trying copy him lockstep, or transition, there are a lot of pastors who do. I served as a youth minister under a pastor who attempted to take a small, traditional SBC church and move it toward a Saddleback model. It wasn't pretty. So I guess when I read the original article about "move or die" I see it as a warning. Its letting pastors know that such a change will take a very long time. Its not a statment that we should hope they die but that we might have to wait that long.

That being said, I have noticed that many ideas, methods, systems, etc once passed on to the masses tend to evolve beyond their original intent. I am not convinced at all that Warren wishes resistors would die. In fact, I don't think he meets this issue personally. He has never transitioned a church to this model. He started a church with this model. Why would Saddleback expereince resistors? The problem comes when a well-intentioned pastor picks us this system and model and implements it. It takes on a life of its own at that point. And yes, I have met pastors who have prayed "take them on or take them home" when resistent to PD.

Calvinism does the same in a lot of ways. I've met many Calvinist preachers who do not lead their congregations away from evangelism but rather evangelize out of a biblical command to do so. Yet, as the theology is passed down, it gets picked up as an excuse not to evangelize. Its unfortunate, but it does happen. Its the nature of trying to package up any set of ideas (biblical or otherwise) and pass on the package.

I'm rambling a bit, but this discussion has me weary. Rick Warren does not teach a false gospel. He teaches the gospel of Jesus Christ. I often tune in to watch Christians when they are on Larry King. Larry likes to be antagonistic and ask everyone one of them: Do you believe that people will go to hell if they do not follow Jesus? One rather famous and well respected evangelist simply said it was not his calling to preach judgment. Easy way out there. So how would Rick respond? Interestingly enough, he stuck to the truth. Larry was taken aback at Rick's "yes' so he returned with "so you think Jews will go to hell?" Rick replied, "Larry, I would go to hell if I had not followed Jesus" and went on to explain that the issue was not that only a certain group would go to heaven but that everyone was condemned to Hell and has the opportunity to recieve the grace of Christ. Granted, I'm giving you this from the best of my recolection, so its really not worth getting all theo-nit picky with. I just like the fact that Rick was one of the few that would stand up and preach the gospel on the Larry King show.

Anyway, enough of my rambling. How much energy have we wasted on this today?

 

[IveyLeaguer]

Back on page 1 or 2 I asked for Scripture that disproves RW's ministry, his church, and his doctrine. I'm still waiting...

There you go again ... You should go to work for Rick Warren, or Bill Clinton since he's still not out of the picture yet. Your tactics are identical to theirs. Ignore, divert, and deny, but never address an issue directly when you're outgunned. I suspect they got it from Sun Tzu - The Art of War.

I gave you one scripture way back then, then gave it to you again when you complained that no one was giving scripture to repudiate your diversionary straw man of 'the five purposes tactic'. Do you have a clue? If Purpose Driven is a deception, would you expect its stated purposes or doctrinal statements to be unbiblical? Incredible, that you would try to make an argument for such a thing.

Go back and get the scripture - quote me - and see if you can get the foundation of Seeker-PDL past it (hint: brighter minds than yours have not been able to - but surely you can!). When you spewed it out of your mouth early in the thread, it occurred to me that the scripture may be over your head (another hint: just because you spewed it out as if it had nothing to do with PDL, doesn't mean that it has nothing to do with PDL).

There are many more scriptures that address the counterfeit teaching of Rick Warren and PDL but you never addressed that one. If you can get past that one, we'll go to the next one (yet another hint: take a GOOD look). You won't, but if you should, before we do the next one we'll go get ice cream. Then, as a reward, we can play hide-and-seek or watch cartoons.

:Fish:

 

[Blammo]

Jarthur.... er uh.... I mean IveyLeaguer-

Sorry, you reminded me of someone else there. Someone who doesn't really make a point. Someone who seems rather good at the art of attacking the person instead of offering a counter point.

Romans 12:2 was it? I agree 100%, great scripture verse.

Paul did write more than that however:

Philippians 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.