"Righteous faith"

[AustinC]

Once again this denier of:
2 Corinthians 5:20
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

The entire Bible shows your belief system is off the mark. The majority of people believe 2 Corinthians 5:20. I am not on an island, but your sect simply makes such fictional charges.

Are you aware that Paul is writing to the Christians in Corinth? Who is he begging to be reconciled to God, is it pagans or Christians? Who is the "you" in the passage?

In some passages deomai is used in its full sense of making earnest entreaty, even imploring. There is a warmth, an attractiveness, a winsomeness about it, as in 2Co 5:20
2 Corinthians 5:20-21 Commentary | Precept Austin.

Tell me again how I deny what God says when the truth is I openly oppose what you teach because often what you teach is not what God teaches.

*2 Corinthians 5:16-21*
From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

We are Ambassadors of the King of Kings. We call people to be reconciled it the King before their sentencing comes due. We do not beg them. We tell them and we implore them to be reconciled.

 

[Van]

Are you aware that Paul is writing to the Christians in Corinth? Who is he begging to be reconciled to God, is it pagans or Christians? Who is the "you" in the passage?

In some passages deomai is used in its full sense of making earnest entreaty, even imploring. There is a warmth, an attractiveness, a winsomeness about it, as in 2Co 5:20
2 Corinthians 5:20-21 Commentary | Precept Austin.

Tell me again how I deny what God says when the truth is I openly oppose what you teach because often what you teach is not what God teaches.

*2 Corinthians 5:16-21*
From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

We are Ambassadors of the King of Kings. We call people to be reconciled it the King before their sentencing comes due. We do not beg them. We tell them and we implore them to be reconciled.

Make up you mind, first you deny, then you agree. Is AustinC saying we as ambassadors are to beg the reconciled to be reconciled again? Who knows?

 

[Van]

A question to ask yourselves is:

Does God credit the faith of some humans as righteous faith?" See Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-25.
The answer of course is yes.

How about does God ask fallen individuals to put their faith in Christ? See John 6:28-29.
The answer of course is yes.

Does John 3:16 indicate everyone whose faith is credited as righteous faith will not perish?
The answer of course is yes.[

Only if God credits our faith in Christ as "righteous faith" can we be said to "believe into" Christ. Otherwise, like soils #2 & 3 of Matthew 13, our uncredited "faith" does not result in the bestowal of the promised blessing for those who "believe." It is God who determines whether or not we "believe."

 

[AustinC]

I will never agree to the OPs merit based salvation.

 

[Van]

Claiming conditional election for salvation based on God crediting or not, the faith of individuals is a merit based salvation is an oft repeated fiction of destructive heresy. Romans 4:16 clearly teaches faith is not works, but some ignore biblical truth to push fiction.

A question to ask yourselves is:

Does God credit the faith of some humans as righteous faith?" See Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-25.
The answer of course is yes.

How about does God ask fallen individuals to put their faith in Christ? See John 6:28-29.
The answer of course is yes.

Does John 3:16 indicate everyone whose faith is credited as righteous faith will not perish?
The answer of course is yes.[

Only if God credits our faith in Christ as "righteous faith" can we be said to "believe into" Christ. Otherwise, like soils #2 & 3 of Matthew 13, our uncredited "faith" does not result in the bestowal of the promised blessing for those who "believe." It is God who determines whether or not we "believe."

 

[AustinC]

If @Van is correct in the above assertion, then all humans are damned to hell, without exception.
The reason is that God doesn't choose who to save based on the faith that person exhibits before salvation.

How many times must it be pointed out that Van is teaching merited salvation apart from grace.

How many times must I quote Bible passages that express God's salvation of dead in trespasses sinners, purely because He graciously chose them from before the foundation of the world?

*Ephesians 2:1-10*
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

*Colossians 2:13-15*
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

*Ephesians 1:3-14*
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

@Van, you mistake justification for salvation. They are not one in the same thing. Justification is the effect of God's gracious, unmerited, salvation. Justification is not the cause of our salvation as you keep insisting.

 

[Van]

Post 66 simply reposts

If @Van is correct in the above assertion, then all humans are damned to hell, without exception.
The reason is that God doesn't choose who to save based on the faith that person exhibits before salvation.

Snip

@Van, you mistake justification for salvation. They are not one in the same thing. Justification is the effect of God's gracious, unmerited, salvation. Justification is not the cause of our salvation as you keep insisting.

1) AustinC posts non-germane scripture and says it supports his bogus view. Nonsense.
2) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. AustinC's claim is unbiblical nonsense.
3) Yes, every time you see saved by grace through faith, that faith existed before being utilized by God for salvation.
4) Justification results from redemption for salvation.

Bottome line Austinc and the sect views he bought into, claim 2 Peter 2:1 does not mean those heading for destruction were bought by Christ. But just read the verse folks, scripture means what it says.

And after becoming the means of salvation for all humanity, Christ saves everyone God transfers into His spiritual body, and loses none, as they all will be raised on the last day.

For God loved humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine So so that everyone God credits with righteous faith will not perish but have everlasting life.​

 

[AustinC]

Post 66 simply reposts


1) AustinC posts non-germane scripture and says it supports his bogus view. Nonsense.
2) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. AustinC's claim is unbiblical nonsense.
3) Yes, every time you see saved by grace through faith, that faith existed before being utilized by God for salvation.
4) Justification results from redemption for salvation.

Bottome line Austinc and the sect views he bought into, claim 2 Peter 2:1 does not mean those heading for destruction were bought by Christ. But just read the verse folks, scripture means what it says.

And after becoming the means of salvation for all humanity, Christ saves everyone God transfers into His spiritual body, and loses none, as they all will be raised on the last day.

For God loved humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine So so that everyone God credits with righteous faith will not perish but have everlasting life.​

Non-germaine scripture, LOL.
You change the actual text of scripture while I quote what it says and then you call God's word non-germaine. LOL.

 

[Van]

Non-germaine scripture, LOL.
You change the actual text of scripture while I quote what it says and then you call God's word non-germaine. LOL.

Yet another off topic post attacking my behavior rather than the biblical position presented. Go figure.

 

[Van]

Claiming conditional election for salvation based on God crediting or not, the faith of individuals is a merit based salvation is an oft repeated fiction of destructive heresy. Romans 4:16 clearly teaches faith is not works, but some ignore biblical truth to push fiction.

A question to ask yourselves is:

Does God credit the faith of some humans as righteous faith?" See Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-25.
The answer of course is yes.

How about does God ask fallen individuals to put their faith in Christ? See John 6:28-29.
The answer of course is yes.

Does John 3:16 indicate everyone whose faith is credited as righteous faith will not perish?
The answer of course is yes.[

Only if God credits our faith in Christ as "righteous faith" can we be said to "believe into" Christ. Otherwise, like soils #2 & 3 of Matthew 13, our uncredited "faith" does not result in the bestowal of the promised blessing for those who "believe." It is God who determines whether or not we "believe."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Is there actually any such thing as 'righteous faith' found in the Bible?
Romans 4:45, ESV. 'Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift, but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.'
The believer has no righteousness of his own (Philippians 3:9). If his faith were somehow righteous, he would have a righteousness of his own. But what the Bible teaches is that when we believe on Christ for salvation, our faith is credited to us (or 'imputed') as righteousness. It is not that our faith is righteous, but that it is treated by God as if it were righteousness, which of course it isn't. The is why God is said to justify (declare righteous) the ungodly.

If our faith has to be righteous to be accepted, how would we know it is righteous at all or righteous enough? We could have no assurance. And what is a 'righteous faith' anyway?

 

[percho]

@percho,
Happy to discuss your post, which is on an interesting subject, but possibly slightly off-topic.
If the writer of the OP is happy I will respond, but maybe it will be best to start a new thread on the subject.

Started a new OP

 

[Alan Gross]

Pay no attention to those who equate the post salvation "gift of faith" with our pre-salvation righteous faith as credited by God. We do not receive the "fruit of the Spirit" until after we are transferred into Christ's spiritual body and then sealed with the indwelt Holy Spirit.

?

our pre-salvation righteous faith

have Book for that?

 

[Van]

?
have Book for that?

Asked and answered many times. Through faith means faith was utilized in the process, thus saved by grace through faith means faith was utilized in our salvation, thus existed before salvation. It is a lock. Ditto for election for salvation as 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says individuals were chosen for salvation through ... faith in the truth.

 

[AustinC]

?


have Book for that?

Van has nothing and has never provided anything. He has created a theology in his own mind that no one in the Baptist community has ever expressed before Van made his assertions.

I have shown Van Genesis 12 and walked him through the fact that God chose Abram before Abram ever had faith that God declared righteous.
Van cannot show any scripture where a person has faith before God ever chooses that person.

 

[Alan Gross]

Van has nothing and has never provided anything. He has created a theology in his own mind that no one in the Baptist community has ever expressed before Van made his assertions.

I have shown Van Genesis 12 and walked him through the fact that God chose Abram before Abram ever had faith that God declared righteous.
Van cannot show any scripture where a person has faith before God ever chooses that person.

Faith is a Gift; "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

 

[Van]

Is there actually any such thing as 'righteous faith' found in the Bible?
Romans 4:45, ESV. 'Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift, but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.'
The believer has no righteousness of his own (Philippians 3:9). If his faith were somehow righteous, he would have a righteousness of his own. But what the Bible teaches is that when we believe on Christ for salvation, our faith is credited to us (or 'imputed') as righteousness. It is not that our faith is righteous, but that it is treated by God as if it were righteousness, which of course it isn't. The is why God is said to justify (declare righteous) the ungodly.

If our faith has to be righteous to be accepted, how would we know it is righteous at all or righteous enough? We could have no assurance. And what is a 'righteous faith' anyway?

Folks, the above post does not accept God's word.
Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness. Thus his faith became in God's estimation "righteous faith." Thus God alone takes our filthy rag worthless faith, and credits or declares it righteous faith. So simple a child could understand it.

1) Did anyone say our faith was righteous? Nope -strike one.
2) If God credits our filthy rag worthless faith as righteous faith, does that make it righteous faith in God's eyes? Yep - strike two.
3) Does God declare or make us righteous? Make - strike three. (See Romans 5:19)

 

[Van]

Rom 4:23-25
But the statement it was credited to him was not written only for Abraham's sake,
but also for our sake, to whom it will be credited, those who believe in the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
He was given over because of our transgressions and was raised for the sake of our justification.

What benefit is said to be received if God credits our worthless faith as righteous faith? Justification.

Justification is the result of being saved from the wrath of God, thus God saves those whose faith He alone credits as righteous faith.

 

[Van]

Snip
Van cannot show any scripture where a person has faith before God ever chooses that person.

2 Thessalonians 2:13

 

[Van]

It is a logical impossibility for God to have given faith to those chosen by using their faith. So simple a child could understand it. The biblical doctine is God uses the worthless filthy rag faith of some, which has credited as righteous faith, to conditionally elect those chosen for salvation.