"Righteous faith"

[Van]

If God credits a person's faith in the Truth as righteous faith, then He puts them into Christ.

If a person has been put into Christ, God has been propitiated toward that individual.
If a person has been put into Christ, they have been redeemed.
If a person has been put into Christ, they have come to Christ.
If a person has been put into Christ, they have been given to Christ.
If a person has been put into Christ, they have been justified.
If a person has been put into Christ, they have been made righteous.
If a person has been put into Christ, they have been made alive together with Christ.
If a person has been put into Christ, they have been predestined to adoption, the redemption of their bodies.
If a person has been put into Christ, they have been saved from the penalty of sin, positional sanctification.

Propitiation = means of salvation
Redemption = act of salvation, the transfer into Christ.
Reconciliation = the result of salvation, being at one with God.

 

[Van]

Van said: ↑
No answer will be forthcoming as to "does God ask fallen individuals to put their faith in Christ?"
Dave said:
I'm not aware that He does.
If you know of a place in the Scriptures where God asks fallen men to believe on His Son, please show us.

See post #29, John 6:29. Now I know some will claim the work of God refers to what God does rather than what God asks of us, but such a view is untenable

John 6:28-29: Then they said to Him, what might we be doing that we might be doing the deeds God requires. Jesus answered and said to them, "this is the deed God requires, that you should righteously believe the One whom God commissioned."

 

[AustinC]

John 6:28-29: Then they said to Him, what might we be doing that we might be doing the deeds God requires. Jesus answered and said to them, "this is the deed God requires, that you should righteously believe the One whom God commissioned."

*John 6:26-37*
Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, you want to be with me because I fed you, not because you understood the miraculous signs. But don’t be so concerned about perishable things like food. Spend your energy seeking the eternal life that the Son of Man can give you. For God the Father has given me the seal of his approval.” They replied, “We want to perform God’s works, too. What should we do?” Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.” They answered, “Show us a miraculous sign if you want us to believe in you. What can you do? After all, our ancestors ate manna while they journeyed through the wilderness! The Scriptures say, ‘Moses gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, Moses didn’t give you bread from heaven. My Father did. And now he offers you the true bread from heaven. The true bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” “Sir,” they said, “give us that bread every day.” Jesus replied, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry again. Whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But you haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me. However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.

 

[AustinC]

If God credits a person's faith in the Truth as righteous faith, then He puts them into Christ.

If a person has been put into Christ, God has been propitiated toward that individual.
If a person has been put into Christ, they have been redeemed.
If a person has been put into Christ, they have come to Christ.
If a person has been put into Christ, they have been given to Christ.
If a person has been put into Christ, they have been justified.
If a person has been put into Christ, they have been made righteous.
If a person has been put into Christ, they have been made alive together with Christ.
If a person has been put into Christ, they have been predestined to adoption, the redemption of their bodies.
If a person has been put into Christ, they have been saved from the penalty of sin, positional sanctification.

Propitiation = means of salvation
Redemption = act of salvation, the transfer into Christ.
Reconciliation = the result of salvation, being at one with God.

Van's merited salvation message.
Not sound doctrine and not taught in God's word.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Believing in something as true, like Jesus performed miracles, and committing to surrender your life to Jesus as your Lord and Savior are two different things.

For the umpteenth time, soils #2 and #3 believed the gospel to a degree but were not credited with righteous faith. This is kinda obvious.

Perhaps you would like to show me exactly where in Matthew 13, we are told that anyone believed with 'unrighteous faith'? What is 'kinda obvious' is that this is a concoction of your own.
What does the Bible say about soils #2 and #3? It says that the 'stony ground hearer' 'endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.' And of the 'among the thorns' hearer, we learn that 'the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word....' So the faith of these people is not somehow declared unrighteous; it does not last. 'He who endures to the end shall be saved.' A testing comes upon each of these people - persecution to one and plenty to the other - and they fail. But those who are born again by the Spirit of God (1v Peter 1:3) endure. 'In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to the praise honour and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ' (1 Peter 1:6-7).

The test is not whether one believes with 'righteous faith' but whether faith endures. But if anyone is one of our Lord's sheep, he will endure. His sheep were given to Him by the Father to redeem (John 17:24) and He will not lose even a single one (John 10:27-28), despite all the wiles of the devil (Matthew 24:24).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Propitiation = means of salvation
Redemption = act of salvation, the transfer into Christ.
Reconciliation = the result of salvation, being at one with God.

No, no and no. In that order. I will deal with these errors later on.

 

[Van]

SNIP
They replied, “We want to perform God’s works, too. What should we do?” Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.” SNIP

Thus the answer to the question, "does God ask fallen individuals to put their faith in Christ," is yes.

 

[Van]

Perhaps you would like to show me exactly where in Matthew 13, we are told that anyone believed with 'unrighteous faith'? What is 'kinda obvious' is that this is a concoction of your own.
What does the Bible say about soils #2 and #3? It says that the 'stony ground hearer' 'endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.' And of the 'among the thorns' hearer, we learn that 'the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word....' So the faith of these people is not somehow declared unrighteous; it does not last. 'He who endures to the end shall be saved.' A testing comes upon each of these people - persecution to one and plenty to the other - and they fail. But those who are born again by the Spirit of God (1v Peter 1:3) endure. 'In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to the praise honour and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ' (1 Peter 1:6-7).

The test is not whether one believes with 'righteous faith' but whether faith endures. But if anyone is one of our Lord's sheep, he will endure. His sheep were given to Him by the Father to redeem (John 17:24) and He will not lose even a single one (John 10:27-28), despite all the wiles of the devil (Matthew 24:24).

Notice yet another subject change, another question on another topic, so yet another effort to avoid the truth of scripture.
If God had credited the "faith" of soils #2&3 as righteous faith, they would have been placed within Christ's spiritual body.
Martin claims Romans 4 is my own concoction, denying the very word of God.
Did I say God "declares the faith unrighteous? Nope so yet another material false statement. Only when God credits the faith of some individuals as righteous faith does He then place those individuals within Christ's spiritual body.
The fact those born anew endure to the end is not in dispute, so obfuscation once again on display.
Finally the "test" is not whether a person believes with righteous faith, but whether God credits the person's faith, as flawed as it might be, as righteous faith. That is what salvation depends upon, and that call is made by God alone.

 

[Van]

No, no and no. In that order. I will deal with these errors later on.

LOL, yet another "taint so" post, but devoid of any alternate view.
Here Martin claims Christ being the propitiation for sin does not provide the means of salvation. Good Grief!
Redemption refers to God removing an individual from the realm of darkness and transferring the individual into Christ's spiritual body.
Being Reconciled to God means being at one with God, at peace with God, and having eternal life with God.

Pay no attention to the naysayers who deny the very truth of the gospel.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Propitiation = means of salvation

Propitiation is a sacrifice that turns away wrath (Romans 3:25-26). By paying the penalty for our sins in full the Lord Jesus has turned away the righteous anger of God towards those for whom He died.

Redemption = act of salvation, the transfer into Christ.

Redemption is what Christ has accomplished for us by His suffering and death. It is the buying back of something that was lost. We were lost and Christ has bought us back (revelation 5:9).
Reconciliation = the result of salvation, being at one with God.[/QUOTE] Through the suffering and shed blood of Christ, the legal, ethical barrier between men and God is removed (2 Corinthians 5:21). We were enemies of God (Romans 5:10), but were reconciled by the death of Christ.

My main objection to Van's attempts at definition is that they have no mention of the cross.

 

[Van]

Propitiation is a sacrifice that turns away wrath (Romans 3:25-26). By paying the penalty for our sins in full the Lord Jesus has turned away the righteous anger of God towards those for whom He died. SNIP .

More false doctrine! Propitiation provides the means of salvation by turning away God's wrath. Kinda obvious.

Next, Martin's false doctrine asserts redemption is not the action of God to transfer individuals of His choosing from the realm of darkness into Christ's spiritual body. Further, Martin equates being bought with redemption, but 2 Peter 2:1 teaches Christ bought all of humanity, those to be saved and those never to be saved. Kinda obvious

Finally Martin's mistaken understanding of "reconciliation" is demonstrated by the fact God has us beg the lost to be reconciled.
If everyone to be saved was reconciled by His death, then everyone to be saved would already be reconciled. No need to as ambassadors of Christ, beg the lost to be reconciled.

The many false doctrines of Martin just do not fit with what scripture actually says.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

More false doctrine! Propitiation provides the means of salvation by turning away God's wrath. Kinda obvious.

More false doctrine! Propitiation is not the 'means' of anything. God's righteous anger against sin is propitiated by the suffering and death of Christ. Therefore those for whom He died are justified, i.e. declared righteous..

Next, Martin's false doctrine asserts redemption is not the action of God to transfer individuals of His choosing from the realm of darkness into Christ's spiritual body.

Next, Van's false doctrine asserts redemption is the action of God to transfer individuals of His choosing from the realm of darkness into Christ's spiritual body. In fact God's elect were given to Christ to redeem before the creation of the world (Ephesians 1:4).

Further, Martin equates being bought with redemption, but 2 Peter 2:1 teaches Christ bought all of humanity, those to be saved and those never to be saved. Kinda obvious

Further, Van does not understand that to 'redeem' means to 'buy back.' He also does not realise that if the Lord Jesus bought the whole of humanity, then the whole of humanity would be saved. But somehow he believes that although Christ bought them, His Father confiscated them.
[QUOTE}
Finally Martin's mistaken understanding of "reconciliation" is demonstrated by the fact God has us beg the lost to be reconciled.
If everyone to be saved was reconciled by His death, then everyone to be saved would already be reconciled. No need to as ambassadors of Christ, beg the lost to be reconciled. [/QUOTE]
Finally, Van does not understand that Christian preachers are to plead with the lost to be reconciled (1 Corinthians 1:21; 2 Corinthians 5:20. He should read the sermons of great preachers like Whitefield and Spurgeon, both of whom were Calvinists.

The many false doctrines of Martin just do not fit with what scripture actually says.

The many false doctrines of Van just do not fit with what Scripture actually says. His problem, or one of them, is that he appears to have no place for the cross of Christ. But if he doesn't understand basic doctrines like Propitiation and Redemption, this is not surprising.

I am sick to death of flogging a dead horse. I leave Van to his homemade errors; he is on ignore.

 

[Van]

More false doctrine! Propitiation is not the 'means' of anything. SNIP .

Martin just repeats his false beliefs non-stop. Ask yourself how could believers settle a dispute as to what the word means?

Might we look at a dictionary? Is our word in 1 John 2:2 a noun or a verb. Is it the means of appeasing (a noun) or the act of appeasing (a verb)?

So our false teacher blithely turns a noun into a verb, turning the means into an act, and then charges me with a mistaken view. Kinda obvious where the truth can be found.

 

[Van]

Were God's people individually chosen before creation or did they exist as "not a people?" See 1 Peter 2:9-10.

On and on folks, Martin posts endless false claims.

Next he ignores that those heading for destruction were bought, so redeemed does not mean just bought but also means delivered out from the realm of darkness.

Lastly he has the unmitigated gall to claim I did not say Christ's ambassadors are to plead for the lost to be reconciled. He completely ignores if all the lost had been reconciled when Christ died, there would be no need, according to his view, not mine, to beg the lost to be reconciled.

It is pointless to try and discuss biblical doctrine with such as these...

 

[AustinC]

Thus the answer to the question, "does God ask fallen individuals to put their faith in Christ," is yes.

He doesn't ask.
God makes the dead in trespasses sinner alive with Christ (by his grace alone) and God equips the redeemed sinner with faith to believe.
There is no asking and no pleading. There is a statement of fact given to men. Believe and live. Don't believe and die. Simple, straightforward truth. No one seeks after God so God seeks and finds those who are his sheep (dead men don't have faith, therefore God does not see any faith in a dead man, which he would merit to them righteousness).
Van, stop trying to rob God of His glory.

 

[Van]

He doesn't ask.
God makes the dead in trespasses sinner alive with Christ (by his grace alone) and God equips the redeemed sinner with faith to believe.
There is no asking and no pleading. There is a statement of fact given to men. Believe and live. Don't believe and die. Simple, straightforward truth. No one seeks after God so God seeks and finds those who are his sheep (dead men don't have faith, therefore God does not see any faith in a dead man, which he would merit to them righteousness).
Van, stop trying to rob God of His glory.

Yet another denial of obvious biblical truth, pay no attention to these posts boasting ignorance. He denies we, as ambassadors of Christ are to beg the lost to be reconciled. Nuff said

 

[AustinC]

Yet another denial of obvious biblical truth, pay no attention to these posts boasting ignorance. He denies we, as ambassadors of Christ are to beg the lost to be reconciled. Nuff said

Indeed, you deny biblical truth consistently and no one should pay attention to you.

We are not beggars to people. We are Ambassadors, declaring reconciliation to all who believe and damnation to those who don't. Those whom God makes alive will believe. Those destined to rebellion will not believe, no matter how much you would beg them.

 

[Van]

Indeed, you deny biblical truth consistently and no one should pay attention to you.

We are not beggars to people. We are Ambassadors, declaring reconciliation to all who believe and damnation to those who don't. Those whom God makes alive will believe. Those destined to rebellion will not believe, no matter how much you would beg them.

Yet another demonstration of ignorance or defiance of scripture. We are to beg the lost, as ambassadors to Christ to be reconciled. Full stop

 

[AustinC]

Yet another demonstration of ignorance or defiance of scripture. We are to beg the lost, as ambassadors to Christ to be reconciled. Full stop

Stop defying scripture and now that you realize your ignorance, you have no excuse.

Van, you are wrong, wrong, wrong. Not only me, but many others have shown you your error. At some point you must recognize that you are living on an island of one with your theology.

 

[Van]

Stop defying scripture and now that you realize your ignorance, you have no excuse.
Van, you are wrong, wrong, wrong. Not only me, but many others have shown you your error. At some point you must recognize that you are living on an island of one with your theology.

Once again this denier of:
2 Corinthians 5:20
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

The entire Bible shows your belief system is off the mark. The majority of people believe 2 Corinthians 5:20. I am not on an island, but your sect simply makes such fictional charges.