Given 'in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him' is the point. These are 'Gentiles who have not the law', NOT totally depraved. How did they become that way?
The Spirit where He willeth doth blow.
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Rightly Understanding Mark 16 Will End All Doubts as to Its Authenticity
- Thread starter JD731
- Start date
Given 'in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him' is the point. These are 'Gentiles who have not the law', NOT totally depraved. How did they become that way?
The Spirit where He willeth doth blow.
You are still pushing this towards a Calvinist discussion.
My actual question to JD731 was whether or not he was saying baptism was necessary for salvation. In other words, baptismal regeneration.
I understand your point but it doesn’t answer my question to JD731.
All important is the spiritual baptism from and of and by the Holy Spirit moment we believe and receive Jesus as our Lord and savior, as we then are in Christ and all spiritual blessings, Water baptism outward sign and symbol of that inward state already have in Jesus
How would you define that doctrine then, as I would hope that regardless of which Greek text preferred, we can all agree in the inspiration and inerrancy of the Originals
Look at at the eunech, as he wanted to get water baptized, and Phillip told him if he had believed Jesus was now His lord and Savior, could get water baptized, so saved and Holy Spirit baptized before the water dunking
Baptismal regeneration would be a heresy
'Saved' from what? Does audience relevance mean nothing to you all? These are Jews of that generation that murdered Christ on whom all the righteous blood shed on the land was to come, within a mere 40 years.
Acts Chapter 2
38 | And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. |
39 | For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him. |
40 | And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. |
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But this is not what was said by the previous poster. I am waiting for his response. I agree with you. But since there seems to be more interest in baptismal regeneration as a topic, I am wondering if I should start a new thread.
Just trying to figure out how one can be Baptist though and hold to that view on water baptism?
The doctrine of preservation is, IMHO, actually the most misunderstood doctrine of bibliology. It actually must start with a general doctrine of preservation: God preserves anything He has created. He preserves nature, believers, anything He has created, including the Word of God. How does God preserve the Word of God? He preserves it in such a way that His purposes in His people are carried out. So, not a single doctrine, not a single name of Christ, not a single teaching necessary for the Christian life and world evangelism are lost, no matter which Greek and Hebrew texts are used.
This preservation is done through God's providence. Here are some quotes from theologies about this:
The doctrine of God’s Providence is the teaching that God watches over and guides all that happens.
Millard Erickson, Christian Theology, 3rd ed. (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2013), 78.
Providence means that continuous activity of God whereby He makes all the events of the physical, mental, and moral phenomena work out His purposes; and that this purpose is nothing short of the original design of God in creation.
Henry Clarence Thiessen, Introductory Lectures in Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1942), 177.
“Providence is that continuous agency of God by which he makes all the events of the physical and moral universe fulfill the original design with which he created it.”
A. H. Strong, Systematic Theology (Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell Co., 1907), 419.
“Providence may be defined as that continued exercise of the divine energy whereby the Creator preserves all His creatures, is operative in all that comes to pass in the world, and directs all things to their appointed end.”
Louis Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1953), 166.
"Providence is the execution in all its details of the divine program of the ages."
Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology, vol. 1. (Dallas: Dallas Seminary Press, 1947), 54.
I noticed by some of your comments about my position that you did not follow my arguments very well. I would be the first person to say that baptism is not part of salvation as it is presented to us in the scriptures of the NT. Yet your comments suggested I offered that as my position.
When I am reading the book of Acts I am reading a history book and the drama of redemption through Jesus Christ is unfolding, beginning at his resurrection. Think about this; it is the beginning of the 5th millennium when Jesus rose from the dead and God had never written. a single word to gentiles that did not come through a Jew. That covers a full 4K years. I will expound on this more in future posts.
I would like to make a few comments relative to what Jesus Christ actually said and how the apostles actually responded to it
In Mark 16 Jesus was about to ascend to heaven and he was going to send his Spirit whom he said would be with them and in them. The entire program of God's redemption through the resurrected Christ would fall on the shoulders of these 11 apostles and 70 elders. They were the only ones commissioned to preach during the first 7 years of the age because they were to present our Lord Jesus to Judah and Jerusalem through whom all the promises of the OT would be fulfilled. They were given kingdom powers in the form of miracles to confirm their authority.
So, lets look at what Jesus said to these men about their preaching.
Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Ten days later Peter, an apostle of Christ, answered a question to him when he told Israel about the resurrection of their Messiah whom they had put to death. The question, "what must we do?" Here is his answer;
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
There is more light on this command to baptize. We learn that one can believe and be baptized just as the Lord Jesus instructed, yet still not receive the Holy Ghost. So by this we learn that being baptized in water is not part of salvation. It is preparation only. Consider this;
Ac 8:5 Then Philip (he was one of the 70) went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria (representative of the north 10 tribes - see Jn 4) had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus).
The Holy Ghost is not given BECAUSE and when they were baptized but no person who was not baptized had received the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God the Father. He is the gift and the Father can give him to whomsoever he will and when he will and he will not give him to anyone at that time who were not baptized, having believed in Christ..
There is another reason that these Samaritans did not immediately receive the Holy Ghost and it is because of the apostolic commission. The apostles were not there when these Samaritans believed and when they were baptized. Look at this;
John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
These apostles are now invested with the authority of Jesus Christ because he now dwells in them. One should meditate on what Jesus says here to them. They are given authority to retain and remit sins when he is physically absent. They will have discernment of the heart in their baptism. These are officers of the kingdom, heads of the tribes of Israel. They have power over the elements.
Look at what is said about them during the last week of Jesus on earth before his crucifixion!
Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Now back to Acts 8 with Peter and John, apostles.
Acts 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 ¶ Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
We see from these evidences of the works of God in those beginning days that the 70 were the baptizers of Israel and the apostles were those who ministered the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. There is reason behind this.
Full stop here! Do not fool yourselves. One must believe the scriptures and not doubt the words. Repentance and faith are before baptism and the gift of the Spirit. If you do not believe God the Father you cannot be saved. This gospel in the beginning is in the context of the kingdom of God. Most people on this forum reject the kingdom wholesale and nearly all the OT and the words of the New Testament do not instruct them into the mind of God.
I can think of two more instances that sheds corresponding light on this baptism of Israel.
You mean the fire didn’t refer to the visible tongues of fire?
Preparing for salvation or the Holy Spirit?
I did realize that you were talking about receiving the Holy Ghost as separate from salvation after I left. This only gives me different questions.
Are you saying that when people are saved, they could be walking around unbaptized, not having hands laid on them and not having the Ernest of their inheritance?
This is not Scriptural.
The Holy Spirit is given to all that believe at salvation.
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
So if you have the Holy Spirit, you are saved. If you don’t have the Holy Spirit, you are not saved. There is no middle ground.
Once again, the flesh profits nothing.
You keep going back to the first examples as if God is still establishing the authority of the gospel to the Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles. God gave the Holy Spirit visibly to each group once for the sake of establishing His work. If we still have to do all this the same way, I don’t even know a Pentecostal church with a saved believer who has had a tongue of fire on their head much less any other.
Baptizo
Active Member
Suppose we accept the words of Acts 2:1-37 and you are standing beside of Peter after the Jews had heard him preach Jesus and his resurrection and they asked the question; "men and brethren, what shall we do?" With the privilege of having a complete Bible and freedom to study it all during your lifetime, would you please stand in for Peter and answer their question according to what you have learned?
Thank you in advance for providing these instructions to these Jews.
Suppose you answer my question instead of sidestepping.
Thank you in advance for providing these instructions to this Baptist
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You mean you didn't open the hyperlink? - wrath
Fire is used as a metaphor for God's wrath throughout the scriptures. The Fire Of My Wrath
"The wrath to come" (Mt 3:7) is the context.
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There are so many different color texts, unless someone mentions it is linked, I don’t see it.