Roman Catholic...Christian or Cult?

[Zenas]

They made a saint out of Francis Xavier, for converting those at Goa, India. He held a crusade against them. He put a sword to them with a threat: Be baptized or be killed. That is how the RCC introduced their brand of Christianity into that area of India, and Francis Xavier was made a saint for it (St. Francis Xavier)! Horrible!
This is the Christianity of the RCC, as they went to India:
http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2009/03/01/the-inquisition-francis-xavier-sonias-upa-government/
Still believe in your church?

I suppose it depends on whether you believe the Catholics or the Catholic haters. Here is what the Catholic Encyclopaedia says about this episode.

On 7 April, 1541, he embarked in a sailing vessel for India, and after a tedious and dangerous voyage landed at Goa, 6 May, 1542. The first five months he spent in preaching and ministering to the sick in the hospitals. He would go through the streets ringing a little bell and inviting the children to hear the word of God. When he had gathered a number, he would take them to a certain church and would there explain the catechism to them. About October, 1542, he started for the pearl fisheries of the extreme southern coast of the peninsula, desirous of restoring Christanity which, although introduced years before, had almost disappeared on account of the lack of priests. He devoted almost three years to the work of preaching to the people of Western India, converting many, and reaching in his journeys even the Island of Ceylon. Many were the difficulties and hardships which Xavier had to encounter at this time, sometimes on account of the cruel persecutions which some of the petty kings of the country carried on against the neophytes, and again because the Portuguese soldiers, far from seconding the work of the saint, retarded it by their bad example and vicious habits.

Since none of us were alive in the 1500's we don't really know, do we?

 

[DHK]

I suppose it depends on whether you believe the Catholics or the Catholic haters. Here is what the Catholic Encyclopaedia says about this episode. Since none of us were alive in the 1500's we don't really know, do we?

We know by researching what really happened. Most encyclopedias are give a sanitized versions that have been cleaned up by Catholic revisionists. Even their accounts of the Crusades are not accurate.

Check other history books. Go to the historians that lived in India, eye-witnesses of the time. There is documentation of this. One needs to simply find it. That which I gave you was primarily from the eyes of one who lived in India, not through the eyes of a Catholic.

 

[Zenas]

Why do you (of all people) continue to perpetuate this lie?
The RCC does not teach anyone how to have a relationship with Christ. There is no such gospel message in the RCC. Almost every ex-Catholic on this board has testified to this fact and you are willing to call them liars, to deny their testimony. The RCC teaches religion, specifically a works-based religion. It is not salvation by grace through faith, especially faith alone as the Bible teaches. They teach it is through the sacraments, not through a relationship with Christ. It is Christ who saves; not baptism; not sacraments; not works. The RCC does not believe this.

Maybe they don't believe it but if they don't, why do some of their top apologists (Benedict Groeschel for example) go on EWTN and repeatedly say things like, "God wants to have a personal relationship with you through his son, Jesus Christ"? I'm not intimately familiar with Catholic life like some of you but I do watch and listen to EWTN where they forcefully preach a gospel that includes faith in Christ and a relationship with Christ. I'm not saying that is all they talk about. There is a heavy emphasis on Mary, the sacraments, etc., but it is not exclusively on these topics. Do they teach something different in the parishes than what they publish and broadcast?

 

[annsni]

Though Jesus was transfigured he still was on earth. Just because he looked liked his glorified body doesn't mean he was translated elsewhere.

But was He human at that point? Mortal? "Transfigured" means that He was changed. He was no longer human at that point but God.

As for the martyrs of Revelation the very fact that they complain to God shows they are aware of circumstances on earth. Couple of points The fact that the prayers of the saints went up to God from the Angels hands which later took the censer and cast it to earth shows these saints are in heaven with the angel who takes their prayers. also note according to revelation everything is being anounced in heaven because people seem to know whats going on here So good bet they know whats going on.

Do they know from looking at the earth? I do not see evidence of that. It is more likely that it is communicated by God.

 

[Jedi Knight]

And asking guidance from a saint. Again I gave an explination for the communion of saints that no matter what state they are in are part of the body of Christ pray for us. Its still just asking for intercession.

This is not of God! POINT BLANK! You should ask God for wisdom and stop rationalizing this. This "wisdom" of yours being express is demonic!

 

[annsni]

Let's take a look at Scripture regarding the dead and them knowing of things on earth:

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

"For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun."

 

[DHK]

Maybe they don't believe it but if they don't, why do some of their top apologists (Benedict Groeschel for example) go on EWTN and repeatedly say things like, "God wants to have a personal relationship with you through his son, Jesus Christ"? I'm not intimately familiar with Catholic life like some of you but I do watch and listen to EWTN where they forcefully preach a gospel that includes faith in Christ and a relationship with Christ. I'm not saying that is all they talk about. There is a heavy emphasis on Mary, the sacraments, etc., but it is not exclusively on these topics. Do they teach something different in the parishes than what they publish and broadcast?

The Catholic Church in recent years has become very ecumenical, more so in the media on talk shows. I have seen one Protestant pray: "Oh God, deliver us from doctrine," a foolish prayer. Without doctrine how do we know if we are worshiping the same God. It is unity at the expense of doctrine. He had a Roman Catholic Bishop on at the time. Obviously doctrine was dismissed for the sake of unity. But at the same time, the bishop hid the RCC's heretical doctrines at the same time pretending to believe the same as the Charismatic preacher (there was no tongues). It was all a feel good, do good, watered down message of believe in Christ, which almost everyone believes, even the J.W., when put in such vague terms. The relationship with Christ is not clearly defined. A relationship with Christ comes through trusting Christ as Savior, meaning being justified by faith alone. Or: Salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. That is how that relationship comes about. It is only through Christ and him alone. The Church has nothing to do with it. I was saved at the age of 20 and then baptized 2 years later. For those intermittent two years I never went to any church. (The nature of my work did not allow me to go to church.)
Many cults, and perhaps the RCC would consider that grounds for losing one's salvation.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Hmm, yes the Reformation does have a place in Baptist history. A lot of good theology came out of it (and so did some bad). Also, many times the only subject the RCC, Reformed and Lutherans could agree on was that my (Ana)Baptist continental cousins were damnable, rebellious, schismatic heretics.
And don't confuse my position regarding the organization (the RCC) with my position regarding its membership (for the most part lost souls in need of Christ as their Saviour).

You are quoting past history not today. Shall I remind you ..... no let me be brief. Calvin & Cromwell do you condone their violence or was that OK with you? But wait, your a Baptist so Reformation really should not have a place in your particular history.....Right.

I will just bet your a real charmer when it comes to converting the Papist. You pull directly to the Crusades & call them vile bloody murderers dont you. Your the type that wins friends & influences people with that delivery. I need to have my head examined to even have dialog with you I'm thinking.

I get it, in your eyes we are all just stinking murderous papists as your father was because he also was obstinate & refused your request to convert. I can see it now, you hounding him on his death bed. Did you beg & did you plead? How did you feel when he gave up the ghost without his salvation being secured. Pretty bad I will bet, because he is in hell with all the rest of the stinking Papists.

So you sit here & you make it a point of throwing out the life line, you who lives in a country full of those stinking papists. Must make your Christian Skin crall right? And we, we reprobates, we phony Christians, worthless in your superior saved eyes wallow in our sin ripe & ready for the pit of hell we so justly deserve (I can see your sneer).

You know what, If heaven is full of your type, I wouldn't want to be there.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As for the poll, the RCC, IMHO, is neither a cult or a Christian denomination. It is its own religion as much as Hinduism or Islam are theirs.

 

[Dr. Walter]

This is not of God! POINT BLANK! You should ask God for wisdom and stop rationalizing this. This "wisdom" of yours being express is demonic!

Thinkingstuff is not a convinced Baptist. He is still not convinced the Catholic church and its doctrine are wrong. He believes in the Catholic gospel of salvation as true Biblical salvation. He defends it because it is still part of his belief system that he has not rejected. From the fullness of his heart his mouth speaketh. I fully expect that he will return to the Catholic church if given suffient time to harden in his present convictions.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Mount of Transfiguration?

Where do you get this stuff thinking? You are stretching truth in order to justify Roman Catholic teaching like a round peg into a square hole.

 

[Zenas]

The Catholic Church in recent years has become very ecumenical, more so in the media on talk shows. I have seen one Protestant pray: "Oh God, deliver us from doctrine," a foolish prayer. Without doctrine how do we know if we are worshiping the same God. It is unity at the expense of doctrine. He had a Roman Catholic Bishop on at the time. Obviously doctrine was dismissed for the sake of unity. But at the same time, the bishop hid the RCC's heretical doctrines at the same time pretending to believe the same as the Charismatic preacher (there was no tongues). It was all a feel good, do good, watered down message of believe in Christ, which almost everyone believes, even the J.W., when put in such vague terms. The relationship with Christ is not clearly defined. A relationship with Christ comes through trusting Christ as Savior, meaning being justified by faith alone. Or: Salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. That is how that relationship comes about. It is only through Christ and him alone. The Church has nothing to do with it. I was saved at the age of 20 and then baptized 2 years later. For those intermittent two years I never went to any church. (The nature of my work did not allow me to go to church.)
Many cults, and perhaps the RCC would consider that grounds for losing one's salvation.

They sure don't seem very ecumenical on EWTN and I don't see the answer to my question anywhere in there.

Do they teach something different in the parishes than what they publish and broadcast?

Have you ever watched or listened to Benedict Groeschel? John Corapi? the late Bishop Fulton Sheen?

 

[DHK]

They sure don't seem very ecumenical on EWTN and I don't see the answer to my question anywhere in there. Have you ever watched or listened to Benedict Groeschel? John Corapi? the late Bishop Fulton Sheen?

I would have to pay an extra $2.50 a month just to watch EWTN, and that ain't going to happen any time soon. Sooo, no I don't get that "privilege" if that is what it is, of watching or listening to those men.

I have heard quite a bit about Bishop Sheen; might even have a book by him. As far as I know he is a heretic. After some search, I found his testimony:

THIS GREAT SACRAMENT OF LOVE
A couple of months before his death Bishop Fulton J. Sheen was interviewed on national television. One of the questions was this:

"Bishop Sheen, you have inspired millions of people all over the world. Who inspired you? Was it a Pope?"

Bishop Sheen responded that it was not a Pope, a cardinal, another bishop, or even a priest or a nun. It was a little Chinese girl of eleven years of age. He explained that when the Communists took over China, they imprisoned a priest in his own rectory near the Church. After they locked him up in his own house, the priest was horrified to look out of his window and see the Communists proceed into the Church, where they went into the sanctuary and broke into the tabernacle. In an act of hateful desecration, they took the ciborium and threw it on the floor with all of the Sacred Hosts spilling out. The priest knew exactly how many Hosts were in the ciborium: thirty-two.

When the Communists left, they either did not notice, or didn't pay any attention to a small girl praying in the back of the Church who saw everything that had happened. That night the little girl came back. Slipping past the guard at the priest's house, she went inside the Church. There she made a holy hour of prayer, an act of love to make up for the act of hatred.

After her holy hour she went into the sanctuary, knelt down, bent over and with her tongue received Jesus in Holy Communion, (since it was not permissible for laymen to touch the Sacred Host with their hands.)

The little girl continued to come back each night to make her holy hour and receive Jesus in Holy Communion on her tongue. On the thirty-second night, after she had consumed the last and thirty-second host, she accidentally made a noise and woke the guard who was sleeping. He ran after her, caught her, and beat her to death with the butt of his rifle. This act of heroic martyrdom was witnessed by the priest as he watched grief-stricken from his bedroom window.

When Bishop Sheen heard the story he was so inspired that he promised God he would make a holy hour of prayer before Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament everyday of his life. If this frail, little child could give testimony and witness to the world concerning the real and wonderful Presence of her Savior in the Blessed Sacrament, then the Bishop was absolutely bound by all that was right and true, to do the same. His sole desire from then on was to bring the world to the burning Heart of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

The little girl showed the Bishop what true courage and zeal really is; how faith could overcome all fear, how true love for Jesus in the Eucharist must transcend life itself. What is hidden in the Sacred Host is the glory of His love. The sun in the sky is symbolic of the Son of God in the Blessed Sacrament. This is why most monstrances are in the form of a sunburst. As the sun is the natural source of all energy, the Blessed Sacrament is the supernatural source of all grace and love. The Blessed Sacrament is JESUS, the Light of the world.
http://www.tldm.org/news3/sheen.htm

His testimony of salvation is how true love for Jesus in the Eucharist must transcend life itself.
His Jesus is not my Jesus!

 

[Zenas]

I have heard quite a bit about Bishop Sheen; might even have a book by him. As far as I know he is a heretic. After some search, I found his testimony:

His testimony of salvation is how true love for Jesus in the Eucharist must transcend life itself.
His Jesus is not my Jesus!

This is a touching story but it is a fabrication, written by a rogue priest named Martin Lucia. See here for his "credentials." http://www.rickross.com/reference/afc/afc1.pdf Really, DHK, where do you get this stuff?

 

[DHK]

This is a touching story but it is a fabrication, written by a rogue priest named Martin Lucia. See here for his "credentials." http://www.rickross.com/reference/afc/afc1.pdf Really, DHK, where do you get this stuff?

Are you sure it is a fabrication?
I don't know anything about the person who wrote it. I was simply looking for information on Sheen and therefore did a search. That is what I came up with. I'll do another if you wish.

 

[DHK]

Are you sure it is a fabrication?
I don't know anything about the person who wrote it. I was simply looking for information on Sheen and therefore did a search. That is what I came up with. I'll do another if you wish.

In this rather lengthy article, written by Sheen himself, Sheen goes into detail about a relationship with Christ. But his relationship is not the relationship I would have with Christ, not any other evangelical Christian. His is mystical. There are mystics in Islam. They are called "Sufis." In India they are called "gurus." Sheen seems to be a mystic of some sort. Here is a short quote from the article:

Scripture gives considerable evidence to prove that a priest begins to fail his priesthood when he fails in his love of the Eucharist.

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/fsheen_hourday_july05.asp

Again, his relationship is not with the Christ of the Bible, for the Christ of the Bible does not dwell within the confines of a piece of bread.

His Christ is not my Christ!

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK...

I would have to pay an extra $2.50 a month just to watch EWTN, and that ain't going to happen any time soon.

I have it on my cable package and I would recommend you get it. Its well worth the $2.50 a month.

Its overflowing with a continual verification of the blaphemies and heresies that we know exist in the RCC.

Some of the rosary liturgy programs show the goddess worship being directed to Mary VERY clearly.

I've had people say to me "oh, they dont do that anymore", and I can say "Yes they do...I saw it with my own eyes last night".

Its a good resource

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

DHK...



I have it on my cable package and I would recommend you get it. Its well worth the $2.50 a month.

Its overflowing with a continual verification of the blaphemies and heresies that we know exist in the RCC.

Some of the rosary liturgy programs show the goddess worship being directed to Mary VERY clearly.

I've had people say to me "oh, they dont do that anymore", and I can say "Yes they do...I saw it with my own eyes last night".

Its a good resource

Ive been told that that that show is actually a "Catholic Propaganda Plot" to mess with the heads of non catholics.....That Nun was actually a vaudevillian actress in her youth...didn't you see the notification somewhere in the program? My favorite is the Roaming Priest:thumbs:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Originally Posted by Zenas
They sure don't seem very ecumenical on EWTN and I don't see the answer to my question anywhere in there. Have you ever watched or listened to Benedict Groeschel? John Corapi? the late Bishop Fulton Sheen?

I've seen all of those guys.

I personally like John Corapi. He comes from a background filled with lots of recreational drugs and reefer smoking, as I also came out of. I enjoy listening to him. He has kind of a dry sense of humor. And I commend his change of priorities from that stuff to religion.

Its just a shame he embraced catholicism rather than Christianity.

Fulton Sheen has always come across to me as being quite creepy for some reason.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

No violence is to be condoned, and I don't. I am not responsible for Calvin's act and I am not a Calvinist or a follower of his religion. What has that to do with me?? Cromwell led the government of England for a temporary time. What has that to do with me? He was a Puritan; I am not. I am a Baptist.
BTW, do you always try to deflect the atrocities and horrid actions of the RCC by pointing to the actions of others? What has their actions got to do with the RCC? Absolutely nothing! You are using the logic of a little child who, after disobeying his parents, comes home and says: "Well, Johnny did it." As if that makes it right! Does someone else's wrong make your evil right?

In case you haven't figured it out yet this is a debate forum. If you can't take the heat get out of the fire.

This personal attack should be edited out. It is not called for. I may leave it in and ask another to look at it for objectivity's sake. You need to re-read the rules at the bottom of every page. Does posting such a vile attack make you feel good.
What I posted was actual history; what actually took place. This is a vile attack on me and my family. Where do you get off on this?

Your personal attacks are uncalled for. If I have said anything untrue or inaccurate quote me. I mean put it in actual quotes. As for this post, it may just end up in the moderator's forum. It is uncalled for.

You know nothing about me.

DHK -- As you know, I probably disagree with you more often than not on various issues. That being said, I was apalled at the personal attack on you and your family. You're absolutely right: that was uncalled for. I hope you received an appropriate apology.