Roman Catholic...Christian or Cult?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

All this but he cant tell me how to get Cadbury......

 

[Dr. Walter]

I believe that the Ante-Nicene Fathers is the history of the roots of apostasy that naturally forms the foundation for the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. So, it is not a valid authority in my opinion.

Second, the language of redemption characteristically accompanies divine rites as symbols or signs:

Le 4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

Le 5:10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.

Le 19:22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.

However, Hebrews 10:1-4 claims they are to be regarded as a "shadow" and "not the very image." As a "shadow" they could NEVER take away sins literally (v. 4). The "very image" that does literaly remove sin is found in Hebrews 10:5-18 - the historical sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

However, the purpose of a divine symbol is to visibly convey the truth it was designed to portray. That visible portrayal depends entirely upon administering it EXACTLY as given by God or else that truth is completely distorted and lost. This is why God repeatedly warned Israel to construct Temple items and perform rites exactly as instructed. The language of redemption accompanies the ceremonial rite as the rite is designed to portray the truth of redemption. The rite does not convey the reality but only the "shadow" of that reality and so the question is not whether the rite obtains remission of sins and atonement but HOW does it do so? Hebrews 10:1-4 and Colossians 2:16 answers that question. Those rites NEVER obtained remission of sins literally only figuratively just as a "shadow" never conveys the LITERAL image that casts the shadow.

How did Old Testament saints receive LITERAL remission of sins:

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Heb. 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.


Likewise, New Testament rites carry with them the very same language of redemption not because the rite obtains literal salvation or remission of sins but because what it portrays obtains remission of sins. "the like FIGURE whereunto baptism doth also now save us..."

Hence, God consistently from Genesis to Revelation describes the ceremonial "shadow" rites with redemptive language because that is what the rite portrays as it is administered in keeping with the truth it is designed to portray.

That is why baptism must be by immersion only because of the truth it is designed to portray - the death BURIAL and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Great, now we're getting somewhere.

I don't subscribe lock stock and barrel to the Catholic view on baptism but I think there is far, far, more to merit it from both Scripture and Tradition than the Baptist view of it. It strikes me that the Baptist position on the sacraments is the recent (well, last 500 years or so - that's recent as far as church history is concerned!) innovation based on the opinions of men and thus is the departure from the truth more so than the Catholic position on the sacraments.

Take the following on baptism for example from both Scripture and the ECFs:

Scripture

Mark 16: 16a "Whomsoever believes and is baptised will be saved"

John 3:5 "born of water and the Spirit"

Acts 2:38: "Repent, be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"

Col 2:11-12 - Paul talks about baptism being the equivalent in effect of circumcision in terms of (a) incorporation into God's covenant people and (b) removal of sin

I Peter 3:21 “for it is baptism that now saves you…”

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In Pa its just called Lager.

Thats the stuff but dont go for it in Lite.... It kills the body so you cant get the full taste of the Hops & Bitters. Not worth it!

Do you think Doc Wally would go out for a beer....excuse me, a lager with us if he were here?

BTW, Im from Scranton.....out there we call pubs "Beer Gardens"

 

[DHK]

How odd! You see, I'm ex-RC too, and yet what I was taught as a Catholic when being raised in that Church bears little or no resemblance to what you claim you were taught and what you today claim they believe. There is a finite number of possible explanations for this, which I set out below to assist:

1. I was badly catechised.

2. You were badly catechised.

3. I failed to understand what I was taught by the RCC and/or fail to understand today what they believe.

4. You failed to understand what you were taught by the RCC and/or fail to understand today what they believe.

5. The RCC in the US is a totally different denomination to the RCC in the UK.

The main difference here Matt, is that no matter what you say about your own understanding of the RCC as you grew up, it really didn't make much of a difference. You just went from one form of it to another form it. You are now an Anglican are you not? How much essential difference is there between the Anglicans and the Catholics? Almost none! The one rejects the pope, but even now the two are coming back together once again.

This is far different than a former RCC trusting Christ, and then going to an IFB church. It is going from one extreme to another. And he can see the differences quite clearly.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Thats the stuff but dont go for it in Lite.... It kills the body so you cant get the full taste of the Hops & Bitters. Not worth it!

Do you think Doc Wally would go out for a beer....excuse me, a lager with us if he were here?

BTW, Im from Scranton.....out there we call pubs "Beer Gardens"

I think I would enjoy a beer summit with Dr. Walter, however, I'm not sure he would participate. I think Phd.s have to drink wine and cogniac. Beer might be beneath them. On the other hand he might be good sport about it as long as there is moderation. I use to like to put bitters in my ginger ale.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I think I would enjoy a beer summit with Dr. Walter, however, I'm not sure he would participate. I think Phd.s have to drink wine and cogniac. Beer might be beneath them. On the other hand he might be good sport about it as long as there is moderation. I use to like to put bitters in my ginger ale.

I would be glad to participate if you would allow me the liberty of putting "root" in to my beer :thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I would be glad to participate if you would allow me the liberty of putting "root" in to my beer :thumbs:

Oh heck doc, sure & we have plenty of birch trees here. Next time your by Eastern Pa.....wont be attending next year but contact TS & I will be there in spirit. But only God knows where I will be.raying:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I believe that the Ante-Nicene Fathers is the history of the roots of apostasy that naturally forms the foundation for the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. So, it is not a valid authority in my opinion.

Fair. But they still give a look into the operation of the early church.

Second, the language of redemption characteristically accompanies divine rites as symbols or signs:

Le 4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

Le 5:10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.

Le 19:22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.

However, Hebrews 10:1-4 claims they are to be regarded as a "shadow" and "not the very image." As a "shadow" they could NEVER take away sins literally (v. 4). The "very image" that does literaly remove sin is found in Hebrews 10:5-18 - the historical sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Dr. Walter I actually enjoyed reading this for a change. Well, thought out and makes a decent point. The question is that the operation of the OT sacrifice. What caused people to believe their sins would be forgiven? And If it shadows Christ sacrifice and christ sacrifice is operational through the shadow of the animal sacrifice then in some sense the prefiguring operation of Christ did convey the power of christ back through time to forgive the penitant Jew.

However, the purpose of a divine symbol is to visibly convey the truth it was designed to portray. That visible portrayal depends entirely upon administering it EXACTLY as given by God or else that truth is completely distorted and lost. This is why God repeatedly warned Israel to construct Temple items and perform rites exactly as instructed. The language of redemption accompanies the ceremonial rite as the rite is designed to portray the truth of redemption. The rite does not convey the reality but only the "shadow" of that reality and so the question is not whether the rite obtains remission of sins and atonement but HOW does it do so? Hebrews 10:1-4 and Colossians 2:16 answers that question. Those rites NEVER obtained remission of sins literally only figuratively just as a "shadow" never conveys the LITERAL image that casts the shadow.

But is the operation still in effect is the question.

How did Old Testament saints receive LITERAL remission of sins:

exactly my question.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Heb. 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

So looking at hebrews are you saying The OT fathers were not forgiven?

Likewise, New Testament rites carry with them the very same language of redemption not because the rite obtains literal salvation or remission of sins but because what it portrays obtains remission of sins. "the like FIGURE whereunto baptism doth also now save us..."

I don't get that from the passages quoted. And I must ask again were the penitent Jews forgiven upon their sacrifice of the animal? Whether Christ sacrifice accomplished it in time. It seems God required necissarily for animal sacrifice so what of the operation of it?

Hence, God consistently from Genesis to Revelation describes the ceremonial "shadow" rites with redemptive language because that is what the rite portrays as it is administered in keeping with the truth it is designed to portray

Possibly because they are connected?

That is why baptism must be by immersion only because of the truth it is designed to portray - the death BURIAL and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

By which is the forgiveness of sins. So be baptised for the forgiveness of sins?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Matt Black...

You posted...

Dr Walter, all we have seen thus far from you is de-contextualised proof-texting, hyperbole, tilting at straw men, with no meaningful attempt to define what you mean by 'the gospel' or the other terms you use nor any referencing to what the Catechism of the Catholic Church actually says.

Thats according to.....YOU. (And probably Thinkingstuff as well.)

But in TRUTH, what Dr Walter has posted concerning the Catholic false church of Rome is in fact...the truth of the matter.

The Catholic false Church of Rome DOES NOT proclaim the true saving gospel of Jesus christ.

And that truth has been clearly articulated over and over and over and OVER again on this thread and others.

What is it that causes you guys to not be able to discern clear biblical truth when it is presented in the context of proving the Catholic Church as being overflowing with blasphemies and idolatries?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I would be glad to participate if you would allow me the liberty of putting "root" in to my beer :thumbs:

Absolutely! Let me know when you're in PA we'll pick a good place!

 

[annsni]

That raises another issue: to what extent can the Church Triumphant be said to be united with the Church Militant ie: is it possible for a physically living saint to ask a physically dead saint for prayer (both of course being spiritually alive in Christ)? Answers on a postcard, please...

Show me one instance in Scripture where there was prayer to the dead for the purpose of intercession.

 

[DHK]

How did Erasmus who's position was that reform must come from within rather than being splintered.

All the Reformers believed that, hence the word, and the Reformation.

I have family who takes that position & they have reformed & indeed transformed from within.

My father died recently. I have no guarantee that he ever was saved. However he would put most Christians to shame in his devotion to his religion (RCC), and in his moral and upright life. There wasn't anything that he wouldn't do for another person. The greatest hindrance to Christianity is "the moral outsider and the immoral insider."
Christianity is not about reformation but rather regeneration.
If he died and was not regenerated he is in hell today.

And then we have those like my brother & I who yes have left, who believe that NO DENOMINATION holds complete value to us. It cuts both ways.

It doesn't cut both ways. The RCC preaches and teaches a false gospel; one that sends people to hell. Tell me: Is the new birth, baptism. Can molecules of hydrogen and oxygen get you to heaven? Can being dipped or sprinkled by some water get anyone to heaven? Do you honestly believe in that superstition? Why not just become a Hindu? They believe the same thing.

Both my mother & my grandmother both shame my brother & I in both their Christian & Moral lives.....

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
--Their morality and their works are as filthy rags in the sight of God.
God demands regeneration not reformation.

My brother is a Fundamentalist minister & they are Catholic. They did not poison Christendom with hatred rather continued to love & forgive everyone whoever came in contact with them, all the while not judging them. If your suggesting to me is that nothing good ever came out of Catholicism, I would have to look to these good women, smile & then disagree with you.

And I would suggest you look back at the Crusades and the Inquistions that horribly killed many. Some of these Crusades were held against Bible-believing Christians as the Albigenses. Is that Christianity?

Do you know how many of the scholars throughout the generations following the ECF have interpreted this verse:

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

So you want to know their value, it was in their raising my brother & I to love God & to accept Christ as our Savior & to pray for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Their goal for us was to be good Cristian Men, good fathers & husbands & indeed gentle men to who ever we came in contact with. I love them because I got my start as a Christian from them. It has enabled me to continue my focus of my salvation again thru Jesus Christ, My Lord & Savior.

I became saved also, not because of my RCC parents, but in spite of them. It was because of the grace of God that I am saved today and for no other reason. The RCC is one of the most wicked organizations that dwells on the earth today.

They made a saint out of Francis Xavier, for converting those at Goa, India. He held a crusade against them. He put a sword to them with a threat: Be baptized or be killed. That is how the RCC introduced their brand of Christianity into that area of India, and Francis Xavier was made a saint for it (St. Francis Xavier)! Horrible!
This is the Christianity of the RCC, as they went to India:

It was Francis Xavier who established the Inquisition in Goa, Spain and Portugal of which persecuting thousands and thousands of Jews and Hindus because they are Shame of the World.
Stalin was a tyrant, murderer, but at least he was not a hypocrite.
Big House, with two hundred cells.
All the persons above 15 years of age were compelled to listen to Christian preaching, failing which they were punished.The Hindus in Goa were shocked to see the God of Christianity being more cruel than that of Mohammad and therefore, deserted the territory of the Portuguese and went to the lands of the Muslims, and received enormous and incalculable evils.OUT OF THE FRYING PAN INTO THE FIRE.
those who complained, or even prayed to Hindu-God , ran the risk of being whipped by the Guards’. with tortures of fire, cruel death.The ‘artificial’, ‘manufactured’ and ‘unnatural’ crimes criminally brought up against the Hindus , to be burnt at the stake or,burnt alive
Three kinds of torture were practised against the Hindus 1) the rope or the pulley 2) water and 3) fire. The torture by rope consisted of the arms being tied backwards and then raised by a pulley, leaving the victim hanging for some time, and then let the victim drop down to half a foot above the floor, then raised again. These continued up and down movements dislocated the joints and made the prisoner emit horrible cries of pain.
The torture by water was as follows: the victim was made to lie across an iron bar, and was forced to imbibe water without stopping. The iron bar broke the vertebrae and caused horrible pains, whereas the water treatment provoked vomits and asphyxia.
The torture by fire was definitely the worst: the victim was hung above a fire, which burnt the soles of the feet, and the jailers rubbed bacon and other combustible materials on the burning feet. The feet were burnt until the victim confessed “I am Christian “. Holy catholic priests watched this scene .

http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2009/03/01/the-inquisition-francis-xavier-sonias-upa-government/


Still believe in your church?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Show me one instance in Scripture where there was prayer to the dead for the purpose of intercession.

Ann, who prays to the dead?

 

[annsni]

Ann, who prays to the dead?

Those who pray to Mary or the saints.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

All the Reformers believed that, hence the word, and the Reformation.
My father died recently. I have no guarantee that he ever was saved. However he would put most Christians to shame in his devotion to his religion (RCC), and in his moral and upright life. There wasn't anything that he wouldn't do for another person. The greatest hindrance to Christianity is "the moral outsider and the immoral insider."
Christianity is not about reformation but rather regeneration.
If he died and was not regenerated he is in hell today.
It doesn't cut both ways. The RCC preaches and teaches a false gospel; one that sends people to hell. Tell me: Is the new birth, baptism. Can molecules of hydrogen and oxygen get you to heaven? Can being dipped or sprinkled by some water get anyone to heaven? Do you honestly believe in that superstition? Why not just become a Hindu? They believe the same thing.
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
--Their morality and their works are as filthy rags in the sight of God.
God demands regeneration not reformation.
And I would suggest you look back at the Crusades and the Inquistions that horribly killed many. Some of these Crusades were held against Bible-believing Christians as the Albigenses. Is that Christianity?

Do you know how many of the scholars throughout the generations following the ECF have interpreted this verse:

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
I became saved also, not because of my RCC parents, but in spite of them. It was because of the grace of God that I am saved today and for no other reason. The RCC is one of the most wicked organizations that dwells on the earth today.

They made a saint out of Francis Xavier, for converting those at Goa, India. He held a crusade against them. He put a sword to them with a threat: Be baptized or be killed. That is how the RCC introduced their brand of Christianity into that area of India, and Francis Xavier was made a saint for it (St. Francis Xavier)! Horrible!
This is the Christianity of the RCC, as they went to India:
http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2009/03/01/the-inquisition-francis-xavier-sonias-upa-government/


Still believe in your church?

DHK.....your last comment nullifies everything you've just said....sadly

 

[DHK]

Yep you are a victim of poor catachesis. Sorry. But am glad you got to hear it from a bible believing church.

Why do you (of all people) continue to perpetuate this lie?
The RCC does not teach anyone how to have a relationship with Christ. There is no such gospel message in the RCC. Almost every ex-Catholic on this board has testified to this fact and you are willing to call them liars, to deny their testimony. The RCC teaches religion, specifically a works-based religion. It is not salvation by grace through faith, especially faith alone as the Bible teaches. They teach it is through the sacraments, not through a relationship with Christ. It is Christ who saves; not baptism; not sacraments; not works. The RCC does not believe this.

 

[DHK]

DHK.....your last comment nullifies everything you've just said....sadly

Why? Because it is true? It happened? It is horrific? It is hard to read? It is hard to accept and still be a Catholic? Why does it nullify anything I have said? Who would want to be a member of a church that carries out such atrocities in the name of Christ?
--a member of a church that actually thinks they are making converts through torture? Is this really true? You agree to this?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Show me one instance in Scripture where there was prayer to the dead for the purpose of intercession.

Mount of Transfiguration?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Why do you (of all people) continue to perpetuate this lie?
The RCC does not teach anyone how to have a relationship with Christ. There is no such gospel message in the RCC. Almost every ex-Catholic on this board has testified to this fact and you are willing to call them liars, to deny their testimony. The RCC teaches religion, specifically a works-based religion. It is not salvation by grace through faith, especially faith alone as the Bible teaches. They teach it is through the sacraments, not through a relationship with Christ. It is Christ who saves; not baptism; not sacraments; not works. The RCC does not believe this.

I challenge you to go to a catholic catachesis class or RCIA and see what they have to say. Or talk with a knowledgeable priest. I think you'll be suprised.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Those who pray to Mary or the saints.

OK, I dont know anyone like that