Roman Catholic...Christian or Cult?

[Matt Black]

Its christian to engage in goddess worship?

No. Please direct me to the section of the Catechism which directs this.

Its christian to place a curse on the true gospel?

No. The question above is restated.

Its christian to proclaim a false gospel?

No. The question above is restated.

 

[Matt Black]

Hence the problem.

It admittedly can be a problem for some people (either because of theological objection and fears of idolatry as per your goodself or because it can develop unwittingly for some into actual idolatry; in both cases one is wise to observe Paul's dicta in Rom 14 and I Cor 10), Ann, but it is not so designed: we are encouraged to imitate the example of great men and women of the faith (eg: in Heb 12:1) and aids such as pictures, icons, statues, hagiographies etc are just that - aids.

 

[Matt Black]

But that's not what we do. First of all, we're not to bow down to these idols. Secondly people pray, plead and beseech them to help them. Thirdly, I don't know many Catholics who look at a statue and say that they need to be more like them. Instead they look TO them for guidance and answers to prayer. Big difference.

That raises another issue: to what extent can the Church Triumphant be said to be united with the Church Militant ie: is it possible for a physically living saint to ask a physically dead saint for prayer (both of course being spiritually alive in Christ)? Answers on a postcard, please...

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It usually explains that they know what they were taught.
That when they were saved, they were taught something that they never heard before in the RCC.
That when they were saved, they underwent a glorious transformation because they now had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them--a relationship instead of a religion. And what a difference that makes!
That when they were saved, and after studying their Bibles for just a little bit they realized that they had to make a decision: either leave the RCC and all of its heresies, and join a Bible-believing church, or remain disobedient to God and live in misery under the chastening hand of God all the time forcing oneself to listen what you now know to be heresy. How could a born again believer ever choose the latter?

How did Erasmus who's position was that reform must come from within rather than being splintered. I have family who takes that position & they have reformed & indeed transformed from within. And then we have those like my brother & I who yes have left, who believe that NO DENOMINATION holds complete value to us. It cuts both ways. Both my mother & my grandmother both shame my brother & I in both their Christian & Moral lives.....My brother is a Fundamentalist minister & they are Catholic. They did not poison Christendom with hatred rather continued to love & forgive everyone whoever came in contact with them, all the while not judging them. If your suggesting to me is that nothing good ever came out of Catholicism, I would have to look to these good women, smile & then disagree with you.

So you want to know their value, it was in their raising my brother & I to love God & to accept Christ as our Savior & to pray for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Their goal for us was to be good Cristian Men, good fathers & husbands & indeed gentle men to who ever we came in contact with. I love them because I got my start as a Christian from them. It has enabled me to continue my focus of my salvation again thru Jesus Christ, My Lord & Savior.

 

[Matt Black]

:applause: Same here with my Catholic upbringing. Amen and AMEN!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

:applause: Same here with my Catholic upbringing. Amen and AMEN!

I will do this privately....have questions for you Matt.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Your explanations fully justify the descriptives I used.

Nothing I've said warrents abuse by you.

God condemns these things in the use of worship

Then your view of God is schizophrenic. You can see in the OT all the symbolism to help the people focus their consentration on God and his promises. You still buy your definition of what Catholics do rather than what it is they really do.

You wife's picture is not used as a means of worship or veneration or medium between you and God. The same is true for the term "father".

Statues and Icons aren't used as mediums between God and the Catholic either. They are pictoral referrences dipicting the gospel and the catholic is reminded of the gospel. Thus orders his/prayer. Apart from that the statue provides nothing else for the catholic. You've again misrepresent what they do.

Don't give me the Roman Catholic garbage about the brazen serpent and other things God commanded to be made and used in the Old Covenant House of God UNLESS you can show me where God specifically gave instructions to use candles, pictures, statues, etc. in the New Covenant house of God.

I gave you a perfect example of the ARK OF THE COVENANT. BY YOUR OWN DEFINITION GOD SINNED BECAUSE HE COMMANDED MOSES TO MAKE IMAGES OF SARAPHIM. In which case you either explain it or hold that God is indeed schizophrenic.

What God commanded to be made and used in the Old Testament were TYPES not objects for veneration or mediation between God and man.

And again catholics don't use pictoral referrances as objects of veneration or mediation. You called it wrong. You keep getting their beliefs wrong. I think you should actually study what it is they believe. Actually speak to an educated priest and ask him questions. Try brining up the same accusations.

Produce New Testament Revelation where God specifically instructs the making and use of ANYTHING in the New Testametn Church that is found in the church of Rome that stands between the catholic and God!

Again misrepresenting the Catholic faith Dr? Nothing stands between the Catholic and God.

The Old Covenant house of God has been abolished so why go back and resurrect it for use in the churches??????????

What are you talking about. Its rapture eschatology that brings back the old temple and sacrifices. Not Catholicism.

BTW everything inside the Tabernacle and holy place and holies of holy were CONCEALED from the common Israelite.

As you see nothing is concealed from the Catholic so no comparison. The symbology is ripe with providing Christian insite into the gospel and the gospel message. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Eric B]

The term "cult" has gone through a process of change from one sense to another because of changed usage. Today, it is commonly used among Christians as a negative description of a false religion or church. To say something that claims to be a Christian church is a "cult" is a common way to deny it is Christian in the sense of New Testament teaching and in particular to essential New Testament doctrines. In that sense Rome is a cult (Gal. 1:8-9).

"Cult" also has come to connotate the sense of a small, closed group that breaks off of the mainstream, and in that sense it would be hard to call it a cult.
They didn't break away from us; we broke away from them.

Perhaps that is why it was left out of Kingdom of the Cults and other authoritative apologetic sources. Those authorities are big on "historic Christianity" (Which JW's. Mormons and all the others diverge from), and they recognize that the RCC is apart of that history and passed down many of the doctrines they are defending. ("Cult" becomea a term for a group denying the Trinity primarily, and groups like the SDA and CoC who accept it but diverge on other points are questioned, but not solidly labeled cults by everyone).

So that's why there is such ambiguity on Rome, and why I'm the lone person saying "not sure".

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You ignored the reversal of that statement? Why? You claim I misrepresented your position by the first statement, so I reversed it? Both cannot be right as they are polar opposites so which is it?

I have never criticized you for TRUTH but for what you have defended as truth which in reality is wrong! You have justified their use of MEDIUMS between man and God. You have justified their interpetation of the second commandment which is wrong. You have defended their traditions that are anti-scriptural and I am not alone on this. There are other ex-catholics on this forum who know you are doing that and have equally accused you of that.

That's your problem. You take what I say and place it in your quaint statement which doesn't in anyway hold my view. Niether forward nor backards adiquately holds my view or even simply describes it. You are attempting, in otherwords to redefine my view. I've given you a working definition of Salvation and Justification and explained what I believed. Go back and read it. And when comprehension avails itself to you then you can ask adiquate questions about it.
I have not justified their use of mediums because they don't. Big difference. Just because you accuse someone of something doesn't make it true. I've only given you an accurate Catholic view of how they see pictoral representations of the gospel.
Now that I've explained what it is they actually believe rather than what it is that is put on them. You can accuse me of what ever you want. Truth btw is what I'm getting at. You don't. Its like many atheist tell me the myth about christians. Such as our God is a tyrant and mentally unstable because he would kill his own son on our behalf. Or that were narcisist because our faith is all about us that we even put God in the position to subject himself to us. And I have to explain that first they misrepresent our faith. And how they are wrong. Then I explain what it is we really believe. And I'm doing that here for the Catholics because to get at the real issues you got to get past the Jack Chick stuff.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Listen, Idolatry is placing anything in the place of God. It can be your car, IF, that comes between you and faithful attendance in God's house or a stumbling block in keeping any of God's commandments. It can be your "belly" if comes before serving God. It can be wrong priorities that keep you back from God's priorities.

I agree whole hartedly with this.

Idolatry cannot be restricted to externals but it is a condition of the heart that places ANYTHING before God.

I agree with this.

When the Bible clearly tells us that there is one Mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ, then, to seek some saint or pray to Mary in order to approach Christ or God is IDOLATRY in the purest spiritual sense

I've explained the Catholic consept of the Communion of Saints. Permament membership in the body of Christ no matter what state you find yourself in. Note when I'm sick and ask you Dr. Walter to pray for me am I asking you to take the place of christ? Are you my mediatior? In one sense you are interceding for me but you certainly aren't taking the place of Christ. In this same sense the Catholics ask the Saints for intercession which is different than requesting special devine providences from Manerva or Juno or whatever.

you are bowing down, praying to IMMATERIAL OBJECTS as mediums between you and God that is IDOLATRY

My father was a Diplomat and as his son I've been to many international engagements from bowing down before a foreign president and showing all sorts of respect to foreign dignataries. It was not Idolatry. See the difference?

When John simply fell at angel's feet he was rebuked much less falling before a statue of Mary or one of the saints or a picture as an act of veneration

Actually, here you have a good point. Save is it the picture that is honored or the person the picture represents? The good point you have is not so much in the bowing down before images as much as how much repect are we to provide to another person? Even the Mother of God? I'm using Theotokos in its original sense here so that you don't get confused not in the sense that is modernally conotated.

Idolatry is placing anything IN THE PLACE OF God or anything BETWEEN you and God or anything to REPLACE the commandments of God.

BTW didn't God replace the commandments by writing his law on our hearts? Or providing two summary commandments? Otherwise I agree with the first part of the statement.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Personally I believe you should allow Catholics in here to explain their position rather than intimidating them to silence but its your board and you can play your hand any way you want to.....In business its called "The Unfair Advantage" & in business, as a businessman I can admire it. However when it comes to Religion & the Revealing of Truth, ahhhh....Not So Much.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You cannot possibly believe that RCC is a Christian church unless you don't believe yourself to be a Christian? Their gospel includes their church with only exceptions to those ignorant or unable. YOU are neither ignorant of what they teach and you are ABLE to do what they teach. So which is it? Are you a lost person or do they teach a false gospel because you are not obeying their gospel!

You haven't even properly define what it is they teach much less determine if they are obeying the gospel or not. You really need to study the Catholic Church not pick and choose outside context.

You cannot possibly believe they can be a "Christian" church if they preach an "accursed gospel."

First accurately tell me what gospel they do teach and maybe we can get around to whether its accursed or not.

You know what they believe in regard to justificaition and regeneration in regard to baptism!

Yes, I do. Do you? And which is scriptural? How do you understand the gospel teaching of the Church? Or the Kingdom of God which the Son of Man (as spoken of by the prophet Daniel Chapter 7) is given leadership over which will have no end means?

Don't give me that stupid RCC run around about their technicalities of escaping this NORM of baptismal regeneration/justification

Now I know your problem. You don't want to study what it is they actually believe because it takes too much work. Thats just lazy.

If that is what you believe then you are not a Christian and never will be one as long as you embrace that nonsense.

What nonsense? That Catholics are christian? Yes I believe believing Catholics are christian.

So which is it? Are you a christian or do they preach "another gospel" and are accursed (Gal. 1:8-9). You can't have it both ways.

Your real question is are you a Christian that buys into my view of the gospel. You either believe exactly my view of the gospel/soteriology/ecclessiology or your not a chrisitan. I disagree with you. I don't believe the gospel is narrowed only to your view of it. In some ways I believe the gospel to be a lot more simple than you've made it and in other ways a lot more complex. But the simplicity aspect is for admission. Anyone who calls on the name of the lord will be saved.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I would also agree that the papacy doesn't want to be considered the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, the Antichrist. But it is.

Get it all out. Diatribe is good for the soul.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm


How disgusting. May the Lord quickly destroy the papacy with the brightness of His coming.

Whats discussing about it? You have to do more than just show disdaine.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Popes persecute true Christians by the civil power like the Jews persecuted the Christians by the civil power:



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm

Yeah, at least you got the civil powers right. But true Christians? People who believed that Jesus was a spirit? And that the material world was evil so sin was ok because in the end our spirits were good. They did not marry had multiple sexual partners etc... They don't sound christian to me. However, the Civil authorities from Otto felt it was their repsonsibility to enforce moral guideliness on their populace. They didn't understand nor have what we now have in the seperation of church and state.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The Antichrist claims universal authority over the church:

Your first assumption is that the pope is the antichrist. There is nowhere that is proven. Only your opinion based on your bias.

The pope claims to be the supreme teacher:

I don't know if you understand this but the position of bishop incorporates teaching. Just like a pastor's job is also to teach. And if he's the head pastor he's the lead teacher? But then again you only piecemealed a quote and didn't run the whole document with all its implications by.

I defy the pope and all popes and popedom and all popery by the Word of God and by Jesus Christ. Christ ALONE is the Chief Shepherd, Supreme Ruler, only Head of the Church, and Christ Jesus Alone has chief control of every department of the CHurch's life....it BELONGS TO JESUS.

Again diatribe. What you need to do is verify the pope is the anti christ. Already many popes have come and gone and all of them called anti christ yet none of them where. So no different now. Unless you claim the position is anti Christ and again you are working with a definition not supported by scripture.

Let the usurper be anathema.

Now you're acting like a pope anathemizing people. Are the Catholics right about us that we are our own popes?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

But that's not what we do. First of all, we're not to bow down to these idols. Secondly people pray, plead and beseech them to help them. Thirdly, I don't know many Catholics who look at a statue and say that they need to be more like them. Instead they look TO them for guidance and answers to prayer. Big difference.

Many Catholics (majority i would say) don't even know their own faith. How many have read the catachism? Many catholics are idolaters against their own faith. And asking guidance from a saint. Again I gave an explination for the communion of saints that no matter what state they are in are part of the body of Christ pray for us. Its still just asking for intercession.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

GE:
Thinkingstuff, Your signature-line proves Carl Sagan is a fool, no genius.

He was an atheist. However, doesn't mean everything he said wasn't true. In fact he said a lot of truths. And I like these quotes. I find them to be true. Plus he was a man of integrity though I'm sadden his soul is lost. But he was a genius scientist.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
Its basically saying that the statue is a Picture of a saint and helps us to consentrate on their good qualities that we may incorporate such qualities into our life. Like I want to be bold like Peter or Paul with sharing the Gospel when I see a picture of their representation I try to imitate them by following their example in the gospel. Thus no problem. I just don't think you understand what it said.


GE:
Then others will stare at your picture, and imitate you, and it will be the beginning of the progeny of pictures and statues.

I hope they only imitate my good qualities which are few.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I went to Roman Catholic Church school and was never taught how to have a personal relationship with the Lord. I was however taught to pray to Mary.....thought that was strange even as a young lost person.

Yep you are a victim of poor catachesis. Sorry. But am glad you got to hear it from a bible believing church.