Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Part of the reason I give it the good ole college try!
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Roman Catholic...Christian or Cult?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
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Part of the reason I give it the good ole college try!
TS......admirable, but you shouldn't be playing the role of Servetus.
What we need to do is convince our own pastors to have mens get togethers like Matt Black's his church does.....I'm referring to Pub Night.
Any church that can incorporate a few beers into a mens group religious meeting is a church I might want to be a part of.
Like my other friend on here, Jim is fond of saying
Cheers!!
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Dr. Walter
New Member
If I were Biblically illiterate, and all I had was your explanation of Catholic doctrine, I would see protestantism inferior to the Catholic church and be convinced to join the Catholic church. According to your explanations the Pope is Biblical office, the gospel of Rome is a Biblical gospel, only nominal Catholics are lost but those who know Catholic doctrine are more likely to be real Christians and praying to pictures, statues, saints is a Biblical practice, thus Protestantism is in eror and needs to return to the more Biblical practices of Rome. Why don't you return to the church you obviously adore and defend? It can't be anything due to salvation as you defend Rome's veiw of salvation. It can't have anything to do with the Pope, preists, maryolotry, confession, traditions as you defend them all? Why don't you just go home? If I followed your teachings and explanations, it is apparent that Protestants should go back to Rome and just help them reform minor areas. Indeed, if I were a confused young Christian on this forum, you would have convinced me that Rome is the true church and Protestantism is apostasy from the truth.
Apparently you are the final interpretation of what the RCC really believes on everything. Every other ex-Catholic is incorrect according to you. I have the RCC Catechism and read it but according to you it does not properly represent RCC teaching either. Apparently, one needs to be a RCC spiritual man to understand the Pope's English in the Catechism.
Apparently you are the final interpretation of what the RCC really believes on everything. Every other ex-Catholic is incorrect according to you. I have the RCC Catechism and read it but according to you it does not properly represent RCC teaching either. Apparently, one needs to be a RCC spiritual man to understand the Pope's English in the Catechism.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Now I'm down with that. And your right Calvin wasn't very merciful with Servetus. I'm personally not disposed to being burned at the Stake. Though Geneva is a very beautiful background for such a torturous death. Maybe I can play the role of Ignatius of Antioch and incite the beast to devour me and rip me limb from limb.
Oi, I'd rather have a pint at the pub and play darts while discussing real theology.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
No you wouldn't. You would see it on a level ground with protestantism. You might even dispel some misinformed views espoused by a track you read while on the pot.
From my explinations you would get this yes and see why Catholics profess it.
Nope, you wouldn't see that. You would see they had a differing opinion and you might want to crack open the bible to find which is true.
24 years down the drain. I don't think so. Plus because I defend them doesn't mean I don't have questions or conserns.
I think definition is a point to be consider. If you are saying salvation with their perspective it is inclusive of some things that are a part of it. In some ways I do like their definition of it.
Why don't you argue valid objections rather than concocting imaginary beliefs. I would be glad to start another thread that questions specific and actual doctrines of the church with out the false chickian accusations.
Protestants should help reform Rome. yes.
No, however you might consider Roman Catholics as actual christians who need prayer and guidance into the faith of Jesus Christ and not be classified as a bunch of pagan idolaters.
I don't know what you mean.
I was a lot like them and believed as they did until the study and the arguments over the years progressed. I've read the catachism. I've read the encylicals, I've read the liturgy, I've read history, I've read the ECF and the PNF. I've read trent and I've read the first 7 eccuminical councils.
The two babylons doesn't count.
No one just needs to read it cover to cover. and not take things out of context.
Dr Walter, all we have seen thus far from you is de-contextualised proof-texting, hyperbole, tilting at straw men, with no meaningful attempt to define what you mean by 'the gospel' or the other terms you use nor any referencing to what the Catechism of the Catholic Church actually says. Perhaps if you ceased and desisted with the former and started to do the latter, we might begin to take you seriously and believe that your title is more than just a figment of your imagination...
Dr. Walter
New Member
Dr. Walter
New Member
Apparently, you have not read or followed this forum and the various threads much. I have spelled out what the gospel of Jesus Christ many times in explicit detail. I have spelled out salvation, justification, regeneration, progressive sanctification, justificaiton by works, etc.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is the good news of God's free gracious provision in the Person and work of Jesus Christ to completely satisfy all the righteous demands of God against sinners who repent and believe in Christ (Rom. 3:24-26).
I can read the Bible and the Spirit of God witnesses with my spirit of its truth. The truth of God's Word is glorious and more refreshing to the soul of the saint than anything other than standing in the very presence of God. I can read the Roman Catholic Catechism, and I have, and come away quenched in spirit and with utter regret that I have wasted my time with the complete nonsense and utter blasphemy and perversion of the truth that characterizes nearly every page read. The only kind of person that can read the RCC Catechism and come away with a sense of blessing, in my opinion, is a reprobate.
I've not frequented this forum for quite a while so you're a 'newbie' as far as I'm concerned. I haven't got time to read your previous posts so would be grateful if you would define what you mean by these terms. As far as the Catechism goes, please specify with which sections you disagree and why.
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Dr. Walter
New Member
You say you have not frequented this forum for a long time and therefore I am the 'newbie' on this forum? Ok? You want me to specify what sections I disagree with the RCC Catechism and why? You don't have time to merely read previous posts and you think I have time to write a book on the Catechism because that would be exactly what would be entailed to answer your questions? I don't have the time to cater to your wishes.
Then I don't have the time to take your opinions seriously. It smells to high heaven like a cop out to me...
Good Grief! Nobody has time anymore & certainly servility has gone out the door.
Matt, since your living in the UK, do you know if Cadbury still makes the assorted chocolates & toffees? In the states, Cadbury has bought Hershey but they cant make those items well. Milk Chocolate yes so I'm hopeful I can get the shortbread fingers covered with chocolate but you just cant get any genuine Cadbury anymore.
My wifes mom is a Scot & I used to be able to get them for her, but the contacts dried up.
Matt, since your living in the UK, do you know if Cadbury still makes the assorted chocolates & toffees? In the states, Cadbury has bought Hershey but they cant make those items well. Milk Chocolate yes so I'm hopeful I can get the shortbread fingers covered with chocolate but you just cant get any genuine Cadbury anymore.
My wifes mom is a Scot & I used to be able to get them for her, but the contacts dried up.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
The chinese messed up Cadburys by putting some chemical in the milk that is dangerous to people.
Dr. Walter
New Member
You want my take on something, be specific and just ask, as I don't have time to write a commentary on the whole catechism because that is exactly what I would have to do to answer your question.
For example,
"Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitue spiritulis iaua) and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission. "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word." - 1213
You cannot say this clearer and more explicit than what is said above. You do not need to be a genius to understand exactly what is said above. This is the HUB on which the whole of Catholic dogma revolves. If they are wrong here, they are wrong on both soteriology and ecclesiology altogether.
Now, do you ascribe to the above statement? Just a yes or no will do, don't bother trying to defend it or explain it as it is very self-explanatory.
Great, now we're getting somewhere.
I don't subscribe lock stock and barrel to the Catholic view on baptism but I think there is far, far, more to merit it from both Scripture and Tradition than the Baptist view of it. It strikes me that the Baptist position on the sacraments is the recent (well, last 500 years or so - that's recent as far as church history is concerned!) innovation based on the opinions of men and thus is the departure from the truth more so than the Catholic position on the sacraments.
Take the following on baptism for example from both Scripture and the ECFs:
Scripture
Mark 16: 16a "Whomsoever believes and is baptised will be saved"
John 3:5 "born of water and the Spirit"
Acts 2:38: "Repent, be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"
Col 2:11-12 - Paul talks about baptism being the equivalent in effect of circumcision in terms of (a) incorporation into God's covenant people and (b) removal of sin
I Peter 3:21 “for it is baptism that now saves you…”
I don't subscribe lock stock and barrel to the Catholic view on baptism but I think there is far, far, more to merit it from both Scripture and Tradition than the Baptist view of it. It strikes me that the Baptist position on the sacraments is the recent (well, last 500 years or so - that's recent as far as church history is concerned!) innovation based on the opinions of men and thus is the departure from the truth more so than the Catholic position on the sacraments.
Take the following on baptism for example from both Scripture and the ECFs:
Scripture
Mark 16: 16a "Whomsoever believes and is baptised will be saved"
John 3:5 "born of water and the Spirit"
Acts 2:38: "Repent, be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"
Col 2:11-12 - Paul talks about baptism being the equivalent in effect of circumcision in terms of (a) incorporation into God's covenant people and (b) removal of sin
I Peter 3:21 “for it is baptism that now saves you…”
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Maybe you didn't hear me TS, again these are for my mother-in-law.
Anyway, how did the Chinese get there little commie hands on a British institution like Cadbury? As long as they stay away from Yingling, I will be OK.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
In Pa its just called Lager.
[continued]. Now the ECFs:
Irenaeus
"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).
Tertullian
In the same way as the act of baptism itself too is carnal, in that we are plunged in water, but the effect spiritual, in that we are freed from sins.” (On Baptism, cA.D. 210)
Hippolytus
"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).
Origen
"Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).
"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).
"If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another" (ibid., 64:5).
Gregory of Nazianz
"Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!" (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).
"‘Well enough,’ some will say, ‘for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still children, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?’ Certainly [I respond], if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated" (ibid., 40:28).
John Chrysostom
"You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members" (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).
Augustine
"What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).
"The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).
"Cyprian was not issuing a new decree but was keeping to the most solid belief of the Church in order to correct some who thought that infants ought not be baptized before the eighth day after their birth. . . . He agreed with certain of his fellow bishops that a child is able to be duly baptized as soon as he is born" (Letters 166:8:23 [A.D. 412]).
"By this grace baptized infants too are ingrafted into his [Christ’s] body, infants who certainly are not yet able to imitate anyone. Christ, in whom all are made alive . . . gives also the most hidden grace of his Spirit to believers, grace which he secretly infuses even into infants. . . . It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call baptism salvation and the sacrament of Christ’s Body nothing else than life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture, too. . . . If anyone wonders why children born of the baptized should themselves be baptized, let him attend briefly to this. . . . The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration" (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:9:10; 1:24:34; 2:27:43 [A.D. 412]).
Council of Carthage V
"Item: It seemed good that whenever there were not found reliable witnesses who could testify that without any doubt they [abandoned children] were baptized and when the children themselves were not, on account of their tender age, able to answer concerning the giving of the sacraments to them, all such children should be baptized without scruple, lest a hesitation should deprive them of the cleansing of the sacraments. This was urged by the [North African] legates, our brethren, since they redeem many such [abandoned children] from the barbarians" (Canon 7 [A.D. 401]).
Council of Mileum II
"[W]hoever says that infants fresh from their mothers’ wombs ought not to be baptized, or say that they are indeed baptized unto the remission of sins, but that they draw nothing of the original sin of Adam, which is expiated in the bath of regeneration . . . let him be anathema [excommunicated]. Since what the apostle [Paul] says, ‘Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so passed to all men, in whom all have sinned’ [Rom. 5:12], must not be understood otherwise than the Catholic Church spread everywhere has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who in themselves thus far have not been able to commit any sin, are therefore truly baptized unto the remission of sins, so that that which they have contracted from generation may be cleansed in them by regeneration" (Canon 3 [A.D. 416]).
Irenaeus
"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).
Tertullian
In the same way as the act of baptism itself too is carnal, in that we are plunged in water, but the effect spiritual, in that we are freed from sins.” (On Baptism, cA.D. 210)
Hippolytus
"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).
Origen
"Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).
"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).
"If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another" (ibid., 64:5).
Gregory of Nazianz
"Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!" (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).
"‘Well enough,’ some will say, ‘for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still children, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?’ Certainly [I respond], if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated" (ibid., 40:28).
John Chrysostom
"You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members" (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).
Augustine
"What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).
"The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).
"Cyprian was not issuing a new decree but was keeping to the most solid belief of the Church in order to correct some who thought that infants ought not be baptized before the eighth day after their birth. . . . He agreed with certain of his fellow bishops that a child is able to be duly baptized as soon as he is born" (Letters 166:8:23 [A.D. 412]).
"By this grace baptized infants too are ingrafted into his [Christ’s] body, infants who certainly are not yet able to imitate anyone. Christ, in whom all are made alive . . . gives also the most hidden grace of his Spirit to believers, grace which he secretly infuses even into infants. . . . It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call baptism salvation and the sacrament of Christ’s Body nothing else than life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture, too. . . . If anyone wonders why children born of the baptized should themselves be baptized, let him attend briefly to this. . . . The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration" (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:9:10; 1:24:34; 2:27:43 [A.D. 412]).
Council of Carthage V
"Item: It seemed good that whenever there were not found reliable witnesses who could testify that without any doubt they [abandoned children] were baptized and when the children themselves were not, on account of their tender age, able to answer concerning the giving of the sacraments to them, all such children should be baptized without scruple, lest a hesitation should deprive them of the cleansing of the sacraments. This was urged by the [North African] legates, our brethren, since they redeem many such [abandoned children] from the barbarians" (Canon 7 [A.D. 401]).
Council of Mileum II
"[W]hoever says that infants fresh from their mothers’ wombs ought not to be baptized, or say that they are indeed baptized unto the remission of sins, but that they draw nothing of the original sin of Adam, which is expiated in the bath of regeneration . . . let him be anathema [excommunicated]. Since what the apostle [Paul] says, ‘Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so passed to all men, in whom all have sinned’ [Rom. 5:12], must not be understood otherwise than the Catholic Church spread everywhere has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who in themselves thus far have not been able to commit any sin, are therefore truly baptized unto the remission of sins, so that that which they have contracted from generation may be cleansed in them by regeneration" (Canon 3 [A.D. 416]).
And the Baptist position is firmly in the minority leftfield when it comes to the Reformation and post-Reformation creeds and confessions:
Lutheran – Augsburg Confession (1530)
Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God's grace.
They condemn the Anabaptists, who reject the baptism of children, and say that children are saved without Baptism.
Anglican – 39 Articles (1571)
Article 25 - The Sacraments
Sacraments ordained of Christ are not only badges or tokens of Christian men's profession, but rather they are certain sure witnesses and effectual signs of grace and God's good will towards us, by which He works invisibly in us, and not only quickens, but also strengthens and confirms, our faith in Him.
There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to say, Baptism and the Supper of the Lord.
Those five, commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and Extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel, being such as have grown partly of the corrupt following of the Apostles, partly are states of life allowed in the Scriptures; but yet have not the like nature of Sacraments with Baptism and the Lord's Supper, for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God.
The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them. And in such only as worthily receive the same, have they a wholesome effect or operation: but they that receive them unworthily, purchase to themselves damnation, as S. Paul said.
Article 27 - Baptism
Baptism is not only a sign of profession and mark of difference by which Christian men are discerned from other that be not christened, but is also a sign of regeneration or new birth, whereby, as by an instrument, they that receive baptism rightly are grafted into the Church; the promises of the forgiveness of sin, and of
our adoption to be the sons of God, by the Holy Spirit are visibly signed and sealed; faith is confirmed, and grace increased by virtue of prayer unto God. The baptism of young children is in any wise to be retained in the Church as most agreeable with the institution of Christ.
Lutheran – Augsburg Confession (1530)
Article IX: Of Baptism.
Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God's grace.
They condemn the Anabaptists, who reject the baptism of children, and say that children are saved without Baptism.
Anglican – 39 Articles (1571)
Article 25 - The Sacraments
Sacraments ordained of Christ are not only badges or tokens of Christian men's profession, but rather they are certain sure witnesses and effectual signs of grace and God's good will towards us, by which He works invisibly in us, and not only quickens, but also strengthens and confirms, our faith in Him.
There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to say, Baptism and the Supper of the Lord.
Those five, commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and Extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel, being such as have grown partly of the corrupt following of the Apostles, partly are states of life allowed in the Scriptures; but yet have not the like nature of Sacraments with Baptism and the Lord's Supper, for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God.
The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them. And in such only as worthily receive the same, have they a wholesome effect or operation: but they that receive them unworthily, purchase to themselves damnation, as S. Paul said.
Article 27 - Baptism
Baptism is not only a sign of profession and mark of difference by which Christian men are discerned from other that be not christened, but is also a sign of regeneration or new birth, whereby, as by an instrument, they that receive baptism rightly are grafted into the Church; the promises of the forgiveness of sin, and of
our adoption to be the sons of God, by the Holy Spirit are visibly signed and sealed; faith is confirmed, and grace increased by virtue of prayer unto God. The baptism of young children is in any wise to be retained in the Church as most agreeable with the institution of Christ.
[contd]
Presbyterian/ Calvinist/ Reformed – Wesminster Confession (1647)
Chapter XXVII
Of the Sacraments
I. Sacraments are holy signs and seals of the covenant of grace,[1] immediately instituted by God,[2] to represent Christ and His benefits; and to confirm our interest in Him:[3] as also, to put a visible difference between those that belong unto the Church and the rest of the world;[4] and solemnly to engage them to the service of God in Christ, according to His Word.[5]
II. There is, in every sacrament, a spiritual relation, or sacramental union, between the sign and the thing signified: whence it comes to pass, that the names and effects of the one are attributed to the other.[6]
III. The grace which is exhibited in or by the sacraments rightly used, is not conferred by any power in them; neither does the efficacy of a sacrament depend upon the piety or intention of him that does administer it:[7] but upon the work of the Spirit,[8] and the word of institution, which contains, together with a precept authorizing the use thereof, a promise of benefit to worthy receivers.[9]
IV. There are only two sacraments ordained by Christ our Lord in the Gospel; that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord: neither of which may be dispensed by any, but by a minister of the Word lawfully ordained.[10]
V. The sacraments of the Old Testament in regard to the spiritual things thereby signified and exhibited, were, for substance, the same with those of the new.[11]
Chapter XXVIII
Of Baptism
I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ,[1] not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church;[2] but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace,[3] of his ingrafting into Christ,[4] of regeneration,[5] of remission of sins,[6] and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life.[7] Which sacrament is, by Christ's own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.[8]
II. The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the Gospel, lawfully called thereunto.[9]
III. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but Baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.[10]
IV. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ,[11] but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.[12]
V. Although it is a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance,[13] yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it:[14] or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.[15]
VI. The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered;[16] yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongs unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in His appointed time.[17]
VII. The sacrament of Baptism is but once to be administered unto any person.[18
Presbyterian/ Calvinist/ Reformed – Wesminster Confession (1647)
Chapter XXVII
Of the Sacraments
I. Sacraments are holy signs and seals of the covenant of grace,[1] immediately instituted by God,[2] to represent Christ and His benefits; and to confirm our interest in Him:[3] as also, to put a visible difference between those that belong unto the Church and the rest of the world;[4] and solemnly to engage them to the service of God in Christ, according to His Word.[5]
II. There is, in every sacrament, a spiritual relation, or sacramental union, between the sign and the thing signified: whence it comes to pass, that the names and effects of the one are attributed to the other.[6]
III. The grace which is exhibited in or by the sacraments rightly used, is not conferred by any power in them; neither does the efficacy of a sacrament depend upon the piety or intention of him that does administer it:[7] but upon the work of the Spirit,[8] and the word of institution, which contains, together with a precept authorizing the use thereof, a promise of benefit to worthy receivers.[9]
IV. There are only two sacraments ordained by Christ our Lord in the Gospel; that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord: neither of which may be dispensed by any, but by a minister of the Word lawfully ordained.[10]
V. The sacraments of the Old Testament in regard to the spiritual things thereby signified and exhibited, were, for substance, the same with those of the new.[11]
Chapter XXVIII
Of Baptism
I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ,[1] not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church;[2] but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace,[3] of his ingrafting into Christ,[4] of regeneration,[5] of remission of sins,[6] and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life.[7] Which sacrament is, by Christ's own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.[8]
II. The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the Gospel, lawfully called thereunto.[9]
III. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but Baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.[10]
IV. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ,[11] but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.[12]
V. Although it is a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance,[13] yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it:[14] or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.[15]
VI. The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered;[16] yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongs unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in His appointed time.[17]
VII. The sacrament of Baptism is but once to be administered unto any person.[18
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