Rome teaches "Works Salvation"

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
Bob,

For the umpteenth time (I even bolded it), read the whole paragraph. It is speaking to the JUSTIFIED MAN. Salvation is the end goal of a man who is justified. You are eqivicating justification and salvation, and even if you think they are the same thing, Catholic teaching does not do that, so you must read it in line with Catholic thinking. AGAIN, this is a man ALREADY JUSTIFIED, and that is NOT MERITED.

Because I'm a nice guy, I will requote from that SAME paragraph in the CCC which you WILLFULLY ignored:

"the Ten Commandments are obligatory for the Christian and that the justified man is still bound to keep them"

Did you see that? Justified man? Care to ignore it again?

Mankind is JUSTIFIED by the Blood that Jesus shed at Calvary, ALL MANKIND, no less than ALL of the whole of mankind. Any other possibility is not acceptable according to scripture!

Truly there is nothing man can do to obtain justification! It was done for ALL mankind by Jesus! There is no man that is not Justified by Jesus' payment of the penalty for sin, which is death.

SALVATION is Given to the man who is SANCTIFIED! Man is sanctified by his belief. BELIEF is what separates (Sanctifies) the sheep from the Goats. Each person's belief (faith) sanctifies that one into one or another category dependent upon the object of the faith...That is sanctification!

By our Beliefs we are sanctified into denominations, belief systems, factions, etc. You cannot say that Sanctification is anything other than the separation of the believer from the unbeliever. God does not sanctify us, we are sanctified by what we believe.

Everyman can have Sanctification in Jesus, because everyman has the ability to believe in Jesus. Therefore, since ALL Mankind is Justified by Jesus, every man can be Sanctified by believing in Jesus.

 

[Briguy]

Grant, Thanks for your last post. I must admit I was not following the logic line either until you hammered it home.

That said, I see no scripture or logical reason that the "law" or "works" should be mentioned in the saving of a soul. I know I know that the law has significance in getting us to where we are and that the blood sacrifice model that the law set up is significant but only to get us TO Jesus not to get us TO Heaven or help us with godly living after we attain salvation, which of course happens at the moment of belief, not the moment of death. (You know, the living water which once drank never leaves you thirsty again).

Striving to follow the ten commandments happens for the believer when he does what Jesus said. Love God and love others. There is no point by point, blow by blow anything anymore. We have the living Christ as our sacrifice for Sin and the Holy Spirit living within us(the believer) which creates a whole new ball game. The difference between bowling and basketball I'd say. Enjoy the fact that we were born in a time when we can recieve the full forgiveness and indwelling of God in us individually and all given freely and received by trust, through faith. What a mighty God we serve.

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

[Ray Berrian]

'Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but accordingto His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost.' [Titus 3:5]

The Apostle Paul in writing to Titus makes it abundantly clear that eternal life comes via Christ's grace by way of a Divine action of justification. Once we have received Christ and know Him experiencially God looks at us as though we never had sinned. And two other points He makes. It is not man's action but His regeneration and the infusion, if you will, of His nature, the Holy Spirit that starts His plan of everlasting life for us and in us.

Beyond this there is absolutely nothing we can do to be saved; it is a free gift. [Ephesians 2:8-9]

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Further, it is written (James 2:10): "Whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all." Therefore whoever keeps the law as regards the works of mercy and omits other works, is guilty of transgressing the law, and consequently will be punished eternally.

Our Lord said this to those who ask that their debt be forgiven, but not to those who persist in sin. Wherefore the repentant alone will obtain by their works of mercy the forgiveness that sets them free altogether.

From New Advent

Is the position of the Catholiic church worded to say that works don't save you, but once your are saved, works help keep you saved ?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Johnv:
The RCC teaches that salvation is through faith in Christ alone. The RCC also teaches that good works (which, imo, would include the keeping of the commandments), are to be done out of obedience.

JohnV,

The church at Rome does not teach that salvation is through faith in Christ alone.That is just your imagination!

Instead,Rome teaches that one must have faith plus "baptism" plus "observance of the Ten Commandments":

"The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments"(Catechism #2068).

Even though Paul makes it plain that the Ten Commandments (which were "written and engraved in stones") have been "done away" and "abolished" in regard to attaining salvation,Rome seems obvilious to that truth:

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious...For if that which is done away was glorious...that which is abolished"(2Cor.3:7,11,14).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
"the Ten Commandments are obligatory for the Christian and that the justified man is still bound to keep them"

GraceSaves,

As I mentioned earlier,Paul makes it plain that the Ten Commandments have been "done away" and "abolished".How can the "justified man" keep something that has been "abolished"?

And why does not Rome keep the Ten Commandments?Here is the "second" Commandment:

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any carved image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them"(Ex.20:4,5).

Click on the following site and one can see the Pope himself bowing down to an image of Mary:

http://www.biblelight.net/wylie-images.htm

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
Is the position of the Catholiic church worded to say that works don't save you, but once your are saved, works help keep you saved ?

No. Because you ain't saved until you finish the race.

Once you are dead, you are beyond works.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

So you aren't saved ?

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
So you aren't saved ?

I'm still running the race.

Have you persevered to the end?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
So you aren't saved ?

I'm still running the race.

Have you persevered to the end? </font>[/QUOTE]1 John 5:5 who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Jesus ran my race for me. You too, if you would just trust him.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
So you aren't saved ?

I'm still running the race.

Have you persevered to the end? </font>[/QUOTE]1 John 5:5 who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Jesus ran my race for me. You too, if you would just trust him. </font>[/QUOTE]I do believe in Jesus.

But not in your believer's easism.

To believe that a single instantaneous expression of faith allows for a willfullness to continue in sin without any consequence to your eternal fate is a blasphemous afront to the sacrifice of our Lord.

That someone can twist our Savior's death and ressurection into a free pass to sin is sickening.

The sin of presumption.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Where do I say it's OK to sin, Ron ? Where do I say it's OK to flaunt the grace of my saviour ? Where do I say Christians can sin with zero consequence ?

But since you presumed I am sinning because I beleive the bible, and you twist my words around, and you try to derail the thread, I can only ask, do pedophile priests lose their salvation ? Is fathr Goeghen in hell today ?

I can easily go back to the bashing, Ron, if that is what you want. We have all been trying to discuss these issues with no nastiness, all weekend.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

My apologies to the Catholics who I have been having intelligent conversations with, of late.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
To believe that a single instantaneous expression of faith allows for a willfullness to continue in sin without any consequence to your eternal fate is a blasphemous afront to the sacrifice of our Lord.

trying2understand,

Paul tells the belever that once he believes he is "sealed" with the Holy Spirit iuntil the day of redemption--the redemption of his immortal body:

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after ye believed ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession"(Eph.1:13,14).

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption...the redemption of our body"(Eph.4:30;Ro.8:23).

If you will not believe what is so plain in the Scriptures no amount of good works will save you.

That someone can twist our Savior's death and ressurection into a free pass to sin is sickening.

Paul nor anyone who teaches "Once Saved Always Saved" teach that anyone has a "free pass to sin".Here is what Paul says in regard to those who are free from the law:

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another"(Gal.5:13).

The Christian is to keep our selves "holy",but that command is not in regard to our "salvation" but instead it is in regard to our "reasonable service":

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service"(Ro.12:1).

The Christian's "service" is in regard to his "work" for the Lord.And Paul makes it plain that if the Christian's "work" comes up short he will not lose his salvation:

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is...If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire"(1Cor.3:13,15).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
So you aren't saved ?

Nope, just marked for salvation, sanctified in the promise of the salvation to come to those who endure to the end! But having the mark of Salvation, which is FAITH, is sufficient for living this natural life to the fullest and with the promised abundance. For in that day, the sheep (believers) shall be separated from the goats (unbelievers) and shall be with Jesus eternally henceforth.

 

[faithcontender]

Mankind is JUSTIFIED by the Blood that Jesus shed at Calvary, ALL MANKIND, no less than ALL of the whole of mankind. Any other possibility is not acceptable according to scripture!

Truly there is nothing man can do to obtain justification! It was done for ALL mankind by Jesus! There is no man that is not Justified by Jesus' payment of the penalty for sin, which is death.

Do you mean "all mankind" even those non-believers are justified?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Nope, just marked for salvation, sanctified in the promise of the salvation to come to those who endure to the end! But having the mark of Salvation, which is FAITH, is sufficient for living this natural life to the fullest and with the promised abundance. For in that day, the sheep (believers) shall be separated from the goats (unbelievers) and shall be with Jesus eternally henceforth.

OK. I look at salvation as being complete, and sanctification as the life long process.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
OK. I look at salvation as being complete, and sanctification as the life long process.

Curtis,

If sanctification (purification) is a life-long process, you must admit that it can be for some reason CEASED by the individual person. And if that is the cased, what happens to the SAVED man who has not been PERFECTLY SANCTIFIED? After all, if it is a life-long process, does not a man who lives longer have a better chance at full sanctification? And if not, the man who dies younger gets sanctified faster, all at once before he dies? Why doesn't the Holy Spirit completely sanctify us at the moment of salvation? Why does he delay in finishing the job? And if I am not yet perfectly sanctified (as it is a life-long process), and I die THIS VERY MOMENT, I have died without being perfectly sanctified?

These are honest questions. God bless,

Grant

 

[Briguy]

Hi Ron, The same passion you believe that OSAS is false and undermines what Jesus did (hope that is an ok way to state that) is the same passion we believe that to say someone can be "saved" by Jesus, and held in the fathers hand, and then lose that, is making the death and ressurection of Jesus not complete.

Point is that we are both defending the Jesus we love and know. We should show passion and love while discussing the One who loved us enough to die for us. We see the Savior clearly, we just see the doctrine differently.

btw, No one commented on my last post.

In Christ,
Brian