And I hope when you return, you will have seen the errors of your church, and return to Biblical Christianity.
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Rome teaches "Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
L
LaRae
Guest
Hi Curtis,
Oh I've been in and out here, get tired of seeing the same threads over and over....busy over on CARM and on Ray's forum...and of course real life <G>
I see you have been quite busy here!
LaRae
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Do you mean "all mankind" even those non-believers are justified? </font>[/QUOTE]YES, the sins of the whole world are atoned for by Jesus thus justifying ALL mankind. The penalty for sin has been paid by Jesus. Does that mean we can sin with impunity? According to Paul, NO! But neither are you judged by your sins, ONLY BY your faith or LACK of faith.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
OK. I look at salvation as being complete, and sanctification as the life long process. </font>[/QUOTE]Then I think you do not understand Sanctification. Sanctification is the result of belief that "sets one apart from others". It is by believing in Christ that one becomes sanctified to and by Christ. It is such belief in Christ that sets a believer apart from the unbeliever, and "marks for salvation" the believer.
CatholicConvert
New Member
Is the position of the Catholiic church worded to say that works don't save you, but once your are saved, works help keep you saved ?
That is basic covenantalism, Brother Curtis.
Think again of the marital covenant. In the marital covenant, both the bride and groom make certain vows. They vow to "love, honor, cherish," etc.
Now I would ask you this....is love an active or passive thing? Does one love by merely sitting around thinking nice thoughts about one's mate, or does one love by DOING?
Love is a verb. Love is shown by our deeds. Even Jesus said this regarding love for Him:
Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
How fascinating that Jesus doesn't merely say to believe alone. As we have said before, "faith alone" does not save one. It is merely the starting point of faith by which we enter the covenantal relationship with the Father.
And yes, Jerry, baptism is NECESSARY for salvation. No baptism....no salvation. I did not make up those rules. God did. Argue them with Him.
Baptism is the rite by which we are entered into the covenant of God. In the OT it was circumcision. And you know, if one was not circumcized in the Old Covenant, one was NOT a part of the kingdom!! And it didn't matter WHO yer folks were, how impotant yo family was, or nuttin!!!
You did it God's way or you were CUT OFF from the Kingdom of God.
And the New Covenant works the same way. You come into the kingdom in the way which God established or you are not part of the family. And God doesn't care how much you "believe" in Him. True belief entails OBEDIENCE to that which He has commanded.
And yes, works are that which will determine if you git into Heaven. Read John 5: 28 - 29 and Romans 2: 5 - 10. Both of them state quite clearly that we will be judged by what we have done in this life and those who have "done good" will inherit the kingdom. Those who have not -- won't.
And Ron, you OWE Brother Curtis an apology. He said nothing of the kind which would indicate that he believes that OSAS is an open invitation to live promiscuously. That may be epistomologically logical, but that is not what most Evangelicals believe. I think your contention was out of place here and did not answer his statements.
Furthermore, he HAS been quite nice in this thread. Let's keep the tenor of the discussions on a good level, okay?
Brother Ed
That is basic covenantalism, Brother Curtis.
Think again of the marital covenant. In the marital covenant, both the bride and groom make certain vows. They vow to "love, honor, cherish," etc.
Now I would ask you this....is love an active or passive thing? Does one love by merely sitting around thinking nice thoughts about one's mate, or does one love by DOING?
Love is a verb. Love is shown by our deeds. Even Jesus said this regarding love for Him:
Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
How fascinating that Jesus doesn't merely say to believe alone. As we have said before, "faith alone" does not save one. It is merely the starting point of faith by which we enter the covenantal relationship with the Father.
And yes, Jerry, baptism is NECESSARY for salvation. No baptism....no salvation. I did not make up those rules. God did. Argue them with Him.
Baptism is the rite by which we are entered into the covenant of God. In the OT it was circumcision. And you know, if one was not circumcized in the Old Covenant, one was NOT a part of the kingdom!! And it didn't matter WHO yer folks were, how impotant yo family was, or nuttin!!!
You did it God's way or you were CUT OFF from the Kingdom of God.
And the New Covenant works the same way. You come into the kingdom in the way which God established or you are not part of the family. And God doesn't care how much you "believe" in Him. True belief entails OBEDIENCE to that which He has commanded.
And yes, works are that which will determine if you git into Heaven. Read John 5: 28 - 29 and Romans 2: 5 - 10. Both of them state quite clearly that we will be judged by what we have done in this life and those who have "done good" will inherit the kingdom. Those who have not -- won't.
And Ron, you OWE Brother Curtis an apology. He said nothing of the kind which would indicate that he believes that OSAS is an open invitation to live promiscuously. That may be epistomologically logical, but that is not what most Evangelicals believe. I think your contention was out of place here and did not answer his statements.
Furthermore, he HAS been quite nice in this thread. Let's keep the tenor of the discussions on a good level, okay?
Brother Ed
And I do apologize for using Ron as an excuse to get mad.
Let me digest your post for a bit, then I'll be back.
Good to hear from you, Ed. Hope all is well.
Let me digest your post for a bit, then I'll be back.
Good to hear from you, Ed. Hope all is well.
Yes, I know sancification translates to"set apart". My view is that it's purpose is that we may let our light so shine, to the world, that we are different. If I ruffled some feathers by saying "can't sin", well I didn't mean it. I'm just trying to put it in layman's terms. Snctification, to me, means we can learn to live a life more like Christ. It don't happen overnight.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Yelsew,
You might not be saved,but those of us who have believed the gospel are in fact already saved:
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God"(1Cor.1:18).
Who are saved !
In His grace,--Jerry </font>[/QUOTE]What you fail to understand is that by accepting "the promise of salvation" (believe and thou shall be saved, a promise of something hoped for), you have the precursor to actually having the promised salvation, which comes after you have met your predetermined appointment with the "first death" which all mankind must experience until the second coming of Jesus the Christ. The precursor is what we have in the form of FAITH! The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen.
If you are living this natural life, which you obviously are, then you are not yet saved, but you are marked for salvation, Sanctified, by your faith in Jesus.
If at any time during this natural life, you become persuaded against Jesus, that is "lose your faith in God, Jesus", the "marked for" (belief) gets erased, (name blotted from the book of life)
Blotting names from the book of life is a very real possibility, and it is done to those who do not keep their faith to the end.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Yelsew,
You might not be saved,but those of us who have believed the gospel are in fact already saved:
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God"(1Cor.1:18).
Who are saved !
In His grace,--Jerry </font>[/QUOTE]Are you judging or are you warning?
If judging, by what authority?
If warning, then take heed that your own salvation is not lost!
Y
Yelsew
Guest
The purpose of Sanctification is clearly identified in Revelation 20:11-15. As Jesus tells us in John 3:18, believers shall not be judged (they are sanctified), while unbelievers are judged BY THEIR UNBELIEF. Sanctification is not a process of becoming "christlike", but rather believing in the Christ!
faithcontender
New Member
quote:
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Originally posted by faithcontender:
quote:
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Mankind is JUSTIFIED by the Blood that Jesus shed at Calvary, ALL MANKIND, no less than ALL of the whole of mankind. Any other possibility is not acceptable according to scripture!
Truly there is nothing man can do to obtain justification! It was done for ALL mankind by Jesus! There is no man that is not Justified by Jesus' payment of the penalty for sin, which is death.
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Do you mean "all mankind" even those non-believers are justified?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YES, the sins of the whole world are atoned for by Jesus thus justifying ALL mankind. The penalty for sin has been paid by Jesus. Does that mean we can sin with impunity? According to Paul, NO! But neither are you judged by your sins, ONLY BY your faith or LACK of faith.
Your in error not knowing the Scriptures,
Acts
13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Galatians
2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Romans
3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Galatians
3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
It's very clear that we are justified after we believed. Not all mnkind, but only those who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by faithcontender:
quote:
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Mankind is JUSTIFIED by the Blood that Jesus shed at Calvary, ALL MANKIND, no less than ALL of the whole of mankind. Any other possibility is not acceptable according to scripture!
Truly there is nothing man can do to obtain justification! It was done for ALL mankind by Jesus! There is no man that is not Justified by Jesus' payment of the penalty for sin, which is death.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you mean "all mankind" even those non-believers are justified?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YES, the sins of the whole world are atoned for by Jesus thus justifying ALL mankind. The penalty for sin has been paid by Jesus. Does that mean we can sin with impunity? According to Paul, NO! But neither are you judged by your sins, ONLY BY your faith or LACK of faith.
Your in error not knowing the Scriptures,
Acts
13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Galatians
2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Romans
3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Galatians
3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
It's very clear that we are justified after we believed. Not all mnkind, but only those who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ.
James 2:18-24 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Sinners are saved by their faith in Jesus Christ, plus nothing!
The Book of James was not written to contridict all of Pauline theology that came from the heart and mouth of God Himself. James is merely saying that a person without 'good works' is not saved but a person who has faith will assuredly also have works to back up his or her faith.
If I recall correctly, Martin Luther called the writings of James, a book of straw. Luther having come to the knowledge of justification by faith, which Catholics still have not received with faith, really had little interest in James writings. I can well understand his view, especially when Catholic types want to elevate the concept that we as Christians are saved by our human effort or 'good works.'
The Book of James was not written to contridict all of Pauline theology that came from the heart and mouth of God Himself. James is merely saying that a person without 'good works' is not saved but a person who has faith will assuredly also have works to back up his or her faith.
If I recall correctly, Martin Luther called the writings of James, a book of straw. Luther having come to the knowledge of justification by faith, which Catholics still have not received with faith, really had little interest in James writings. I can well understand his view, especially when Catholic types want to elevate the concept that we as Christians are saved by our human effort or 'good works.'
Having come to the knowledge? Do you mean he received a revelation? Or he just thought he was smarter than the Church?
Anyway, if faith automatically leads to good works, then why would James even speak about faith without works? Clearly James saw that it was possible to have faith without works. That's why he warned against it!
In Catholic theology, James does not contradict Paul. If you think Scripture contradicts itself, then the problem is with your theology, not the Church's.
Justified Saint
New Member
This is precisely why Luther considered James a book of straw since it went against his faulty intepretation of "faith alone" from scripture. It defintely would help to come to the conculsion of "faith alone" especially when you add the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 like Luther did.
I am bit suprised though that other Christians here agree with Luther's assessment that James was a book of straw. Ray, would you consider the book not cannonical like Luther? What about Revelation, Jude, or Hebrews then? Are they books of straw too like Luther thought?
I am bit suprised though that other Christians here agree with Luther's assessment that James was a book of straw. Ray, would you consider the book not cannonical like Luther? What about Revelation, Jude, or Hebrews then? Are they books of straw too like Luther thought?
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Faith Contender,
The scriptures you posted do not prove me wrong, they merely express another mans concept of the truth. Those authors did not have the benefit of looking back or seeing the broad picture of what they were writing about.
Now I must ask you to tell us all what scripture tells us about Jesus' atonement "for the sins of the world".
Who was it for?
What was if for?
Why did it have to happen?
We have a good idea of When and Where.
What does the atonement do?
Is there anyone who is not covered by the Blood of Jesus?
If Jesus' Atonement for sins is "Payment in Full" for the penalty for the sins of the world, can sins be a factor in the judgment of man?
If Sins are not a factor in the judgment of man, then by what standard is man judged?
With sins dealt with by Jesus, isn't man justified by Jesus' atonement?
What sets one man apart from others?
What makes one man a part of the kingdom of God and not others?
What is it that man must have to receive eternal life?
What happens to men who do not have it?
FaithContender, I challenge you to look beyond the mere words of the scriptures and find the whole truth of scripture.
Consider what it means to be Justified
Consider what it means to be Sanctified
You may want to retract your judgment of me.
The scriptures you posted do not prove me wrong, they merely express another mans concept of the truth. Those authors did not have the benefit of looking back or seeing the broad picture of what they were writing about.
Now I must ask you to tell us all what scripture tells us about Jesus' atonement "for the sins of the world".
Who was it for?
What was if for?
Why did it have to happen?
We have a good idea of When and Where.
What does the atonement do?
Is there anyone who is not covered by the Blood of Jesus?
If Jesus' Atonement for sins is "Payment in Full" for the penalty for the sins of the world, can sins be a factor in the judgment of man?
If Sins are not a factor in the judgment of man, then by what standard is man judged?
With sins dealt with by Jesus, isn't man justified by Jesus' atonement?
What sets one man apart from others?
What makes one man a part of the kingdom of God and not others?
What is it that man must have to receive eternal life?
What happens to men who do not have it?
FaithContender, I challenge you to look beyond the mere words of the scriptures and find the whole truth of scripture.
Consider what it means to be Justified
Consider what it means to be Sanctified
You may want to retract your judgment of me.
faithcontender
New Member
Yelsew,
I have given you many verses in the Scrptures, and you directly ignored them. If i can't convince you by the Scriptures, i believe i don't have any thing with me that will work for you but only the power of God.
I suggest you ask God to reveal this to you as i pray that God may open your hearts to these great truths.
It's very hard to convince those who are already convinced of themselves about what they are going to believe.
It takes the power of God and what i can do is just pray for you. Sorry to dissapoint you. It's good for your soul.
God bless!
I have given you many verses in the Scrptures, and you directly ignored them. If i can't convince you by the Scriptures, i believe i don't have any thing with me that will work for you but only the power of God.
I suggest you ask God to reveal this to you as i pray that God may open your hearts to these great truths.
It's very hard to convince those who are already convinced of themselves about what they are going to believe.
It takes the power of God and what i can do is just pray for you. Sorry to dissapoint you. It's good for your soul.
God bless!
Hey all,
I just have to jump back in here. (my post will probably be ignored like my last two, but that is OK I won't cry or anything, well maybe I will
I think the point on sanctification and justification that is being missed, or by-passed as it were, is from whos perspective you are looking at. Never forget that God knows all. We do not need to prove our faith to him, for he knows whether we have faith or not. We are justified before men, with our works. We prove to men, by our works that our faith is real. If we prove to them that we have been sanctified "set apart" they will possibly join us. That is where the "works" of James really come in. Our Sanctification, as far as God is concerned happens at the point when we drink the living water (trust Jesus). We are clean in God's eyes forever as the Blood of Jesus cleans fully and forever (why folks would want to believe somrthing different I just don't get). From an earthly perspective we mature and grow in grace and knowledge with time. True christians will grow, as we all start as babies and babies grow. Earthly maturing is a cleaning process and likened by some to a sanctification process. Being justified to God happens with trusting Christ, being justified to men happens by working out our salvation. There you have it a concept that encompasses the scriptures as a whole and not at tit for tat approach.
Take care and respond if you dare! (I was hoping that would get at least somebody to acknowledge me on this thread
)
In Love and Truth,
Brian
I just have to jump back in here. (my post will probably be ignored like my last two, but that is OK I won't cry or anything, well maybe I will
I think the point on sanctification and justification that is being missed, or by-passed as it were, is from whos perspective you are looking at. Never forget that God knows all. We do not need to prove our faith to him, for he knows whether we have faith or not. We are justified before men, with our works. We prove to men, by our works that our faith is real. If we prove to them that we have been sanctified "set apart" they will possibly join us. That is where the "works" of James really come in. Our Sanctification, as far as God is concerned happens at the point when we drink the living water (trust Jesus). We are clean in God's eyes forever as the Blood of Jesus cleans fully and forever (why folks would want to believe somrthing different I just don't get). From an earthly perspective we mature and grow in grace and knowledge with time. True christians will grow, as we all start as babies and babies grow. Earthly maturing is a cleaning process and likened by some to a sanctification process. Being justified to God happens with trusting Christ, being justified to men happens by working out our salvation. There you have it a concept that encompasses the scriptures as a whole and not at tit for tat approach.
Take care and respond if you dare! (I was hoping that would get at least somebody to acknowledge me on this thread
In Love and Truth,
Brian
CatholicConvert
New Member
Brian --
Ya couldn't be more wrong, kid.
We do not "drink the living water" by sitting around believing upon Jesus.
THINK!!
To drink means to "take within oneself" so that the water becomes part of oneself.
You wish to drink the living water? Join the Church and began to take Jesus Himself within you via the Blessed Sacrament (Euchariston).
THEN, my friend, you will indeed "drink the living water." Or as the Early Fathers said, you will recieve the "medicine of immortality" unto eternal life. That is what Jesus said:
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Interesting, isn't it Ray? Jesus said nothing about "faith alone" confering eternal life. Salvation, yes. "Believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
But that just puts you in the household and begins the pilgrimage for you. You must still persevere to the end and recieve the inheritance as a faithful covenant keeper.
Brother Ed
Ya couldn't be more wrong, kid.
We do not "drink the living water" by sitting around believing upon Jesus.
THINK!!
To drink means to "take within oneself" so that the water becomes part of oneself.
You wish to drink the living water? Join the Church and began to take Jesus Himself within you via the Blessed Sacrament (Euchariston).
THEN, my friend, you will indeed "drink the living water." Or as the Early Fathers said, you will recieve the "medicine of immortality" unto eternal life. That is what Jesus said:
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Interesting, isn't it Ray? Jesus said nothing about "faith alone" confering eternal life. Salvation, yes. "Believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
But that just puts you in the household and begins the pilgrimage for you. You must still persevere to the end and recieve the inheritance as a faithful covenant keeper.
Brother Ed
faithcontender
New Member
Hi Brian,
You have a balance view of Scriptures. This is the best explanation of the seemingly contradiction.
God bless you more!!
You have a balance view of Scriptures. This is the best explanation of the seemingly contradiction.
God bless you more!!