Rome teaches "Works Salvation"

[Briguy]

Thanks Faithcontender. God's blessings be upon you as well

Hi Ed, How you been? Hope you are well. How is your wife? I recall praying for her a while back. Any improvements? Let me and others know if we should continue to pray for her.

You said”

“””To drink means to "take within oneself" so that the water becomes part of oneself.”””

I totally believe that statement. I also believe that the bread and wine are symbolic of that same drinking. We drink the wine and eat the bread and it becomes one with us, it is no longer separate elements. It is a reminder to us that when we drank of the living water (placed our trust in Christ) that he became one with us. He dwells inside of me in a way that he can never be separated from me. (argument for Eternal security). That is the beauty of remembering the Lord’s Supper.

Ed, the living water, once drank never needs to be drank again because there is no more thirst. You sound as if you sit around and sip the living water every day. That is not consistent with the words Jesus used. Come on Ed, chug that water and never thirst again!! (I didn’t mean it imply you were not saved, but it fit so nicely in the sentence I had to say that.

)

Take care, and btw when you call a 41 year old “kid” you are really dating yourself.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
The purpose of Sanctification is clearly identified in Revelation 20:11-15. As Jesus tells us in John 3:18, believers shall not be judged (they are sanctified), while unbelievers are judged BY THEIR UNBELIEF. Sanctification is not a process of becoming "christlike", but rather believing in the Christ!

Since sanctification would be a life process, and the verses you kindly posted deal with what happens when life here is over, we almost agree.

Almost.

Justification - instant upon salvation.
Sanctification - gradual.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Interesting, isn't it Ray? Jesus said nothing about "faith alone" confering eternal life. Salvation, yes. "Believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

CatholicConvert,

You left out what the LOrd Jesus said later concerning the "flesh":

"It is the Spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

Rome teaches that the "flesh" does indeed profit even though the Lord Jesus Himself says it does not.

Peter says that one receives life and is "born again" by the "gospel":

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you"(Jn.6:63).

The flesh profiteth nothing !

Think.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
The purpose of Sanctification is clearly identified in Revelation 20:11-15. As Jesus tells us in John 3:18, believers shall not be judged (they are sanctified), while unbelievers are judged BY THEIR UNBELIEF. Sanctification is not a process of becoming "christlike", but rather believing in the Christ!

Since sanctification would be a life process, and the verses you kindly posted deal with what happens when life here is over, we almost agree.

Almost.

Justification - instant upon salvation.
Sanctification - gradual. </font>[/QUOTE]Sanctification is the process of coming to faith, it is the process that gets us to being "set apart". It is the transition from sinner to saint that occurse from initial hearing of the word until the spirit of man is solidly convinced of who and what Jesus is and comes to rely on Jesus. That sanctification occurs during this natural life. It is what enables the one sanctified to pass from death unto life eternal thus avoiding the judgment and being cast into the lake of fire.

If one is not sanctified before passing through the first death, there is nothing on the other side that can sanctify the one.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by faithcontender:
Yelsew,

I have given you many verses in the Scrptures, and you directly ignored them. If i can't convince you by the Scriptures, i believe i don't have any thing with me that will work for you but only the power of God.

I suggest you ask God to reveal this to you as i pray that God may open your hearts to these great truths.

It's very hard to convince those who are already convinced of themselves about what they are going to believe.

It takes the power of God and what i can do is just pray for you. Sorry to dissapoint you. It's good for your soul.

God bless!

I guess some people do not have their own thoughts on matters of spirituality.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Brian --

Are you REALLY 41!! Man, you look really younger in that icon/picture in your posts. I thought maybe mid 30's!!

I totally believe that statement. I also believe that the bread and wine are symbolic of that same drinking.

Not what Jesus said. Read John 6 again. He makes it clear that we are LITERALLY eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood. Symbolisms cannot save anyone.

We drink the wine and eat the bread and it becomes one with us, it is no longer separate elements.

Oh Brian, you are sooooo close. Just take that truth and apply it to Christ Himself. Again, remember the marital covenant. Marriage is not a piece of paper. It is UNION!!!

It is a reminder to us that when we drank of the living water (placed our trust in Christ) that he became one with us. He dwells inside of me in a way that he can never be separated from me. (argument for Eternal security).

No such thing Brian. Eternal security is only after we obtain the inheritance, which is eternal life. We are still on the journey down here.

Now I will give you this. There are those who are "the elect of God" They will persevere to the end. That is both Scripture and Catholic teaching. But since neither you nor I know if we are of that group, we cannot teach "eternal security" as a blanket statement for everyone.

Ed, the living water, once drank never needs to be drank again because there is no more thirst. You sound as if you sit around and sip the living water every day. That is not consistent with the words Jesus used.

Well of course I do, or at least I try to. I am not a Greek scholar, but this idea of "one drink and no more thirst" is probably the same as the "once believe and ever be saved" idea from John 3:16. The Greek there should read like this:


"For God so loved the world that whosover believeth and continues to believe upon Him shall have eternal life."

Once again, the KJB is a horrendous translation of the tense in the Greek. I imagine the same could be said of the verse you quote. We must not only drink, but continue to drink.

And that is consistent with covenantalism also. Brian, salvation is a covenant. All the non-Catholics here seem to wish to ignore that reality. Jesus said it: "This is the New Covenant in my Blood..." Therefore, any ideas regarding salvation have to fall within covenantal paradigms or they are simply false, no matter how appealing they are (such as "once saved -- always saved")

Wife is not doing good. Life is.....well, life, which means it has its shares of daily hassles and daily blessings.

Hope you are well also.

Brother Ed

 

[CatholicConvert]

The flesh profiteth nothing !

Think.

So what you really mean is that the death on the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ was also worthless, since He did that in the Flesh also, right?

Why don't YOU stop and THINK before you spit out your Protestant knee jerk nostrums!!??

Brother Ed

 

[BrianT]

The flesh profiteth nothing !

Think.

Isa 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Rom 1:3 "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;"

Col 1:21-22 "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:"

Heb 10:20 "By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;"

1 Peter 4:1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"

1 John 4:2 "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:"

I'd say Christ's flesh is pretty profitable indeed, in many different ways!

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The flesh profiteth nothing !

Think.

So what you really mean is that the death on the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ was also worthless, since He did that in the Flesh also, right?

Why don't YOU stop and THINK before you spit out your Protestant knee jerk nostrums!!??

Brother Ed </font>[/QUOTE]Jerry also ignores the critical distinction between "my flesh" (as spoken by Christ four times in John 6, in addition to "my blood" three times) and "the flesh."

I know as Catholics we believe Christ's flesh, His Incarnation, His death on the cross, have profitted us everything.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
So what you really mean is that the death on the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ was also worthless, since He did that in the Flesh also, right?

CatholicConvert,

It was not the Lord's "physical" death on the Cross that saves the believer.He did not die a "physical" death for us because men experience their own physical death:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"(Heb.9:27).

The Lord Jesus died a "spiritual" death on the Cross when He was forsaken by the Father.

Why don't YOU stop and THINK before you spit out your Protestant knee jerk nostrums!!??

I would tell you to "think" before you demonstate that you cannot tell the difference between things of the "flesh" and things of the "Spirit",but since it is obvious that you cannot distinguish between the two it would be fruitless.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"(1Cor.2:14).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

CatholicConvert,

Earlier I said that no one is justified by observing the law.To which you replied:

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
Your basic problem is that you misunderstand what St. Paul is discussing when he speaks of the law. He is not talking about the moral law of God....he is talking about the ceremonial laws which kept the Jews in a state of righteousness when they were kept.

I pointed out that "the law" includes all the things which are written in "the book of the law":

Here we can see that the reference to "the law" includes "all things which are written in the book of the law":

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith"(Gal.3:10,11).

And then I sked you a simple question,a question which you did not answer:

Are you willing to argue that the "Ten Commandments" were not written in the "book of law"?

You also said:

The big BIG argument that the apostles faced almost from the inception of the Church was from the Judaizers who insisted that without circumcision there could be no salvation. This is what St. Paul is talking about when he discusses the law, NOT obedience to the moral law.

I answered using Scripture:

No,James explicitly states that the argument in regard to the Judaizers was in regard to "circumcision" and "the law":

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment"(Acts15:24).

Of course you did not respond to this,and I did not expect you to answer.You have established a pattern of this forum,and that pattern is to run from the Scriptures which you cannot answer.

In His grace,--Jerry

[ November 19, 2003, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Jerry Shugart ]

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
But remember that the Holy Spirit is called "the earnest of our inheritance" in Ephesians.

An earnest is a part of the whole which is a pledge and promise of the full amount yet to come at a later time IF the agreement is kept and fulfilled.

CatholicConvert,

I can see that you have no problem in "adding" to the word of God if it suits your purpose.There is never any condition in regard to the fact that the believer is "sealed" by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption,the redemption of our immortal bodies.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after ye believed ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession"(Eph.1:13,14).

There are absolutely no "conditions" in the words of Paul.The believer is "sealed" by the Holy Spirit after he believes and he will remain sealed "until the redemption of the purchased possession".PERIOD

But since that does not fit the teaching of Rome you just "add" conditions to this "unconditional" statement.Here are Paul's words later in the same epistle:

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, by Whom ye are sealed unto the day of redemption"(Eph.4:30).

Again we can see that there are no "conditions" in this "unconditional" statement.Paul says very clearly that the believer is "sealed unto the day of redemption".

But since this does not fit the "doctrines of men" which you so faithfully follow,you add "conditions" that are not there.And then you have the nerve to say:

Why don't YOU stop and THINK before you spit out your Protestant knee jerk nostrums!!??

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[CatholicConvert]

I have not studied what exactly constitutes "the book of the law" from the vantage point of a theologian. My interests have been elsewhere.

However, in listening to tapes by those who are far, far more studied and learned than I am, I have heard it taught that the reference to the "law" in Romans had to do primarily with the ceremonial law of God as given to the Jews in rites they were to perform. The main rite and central focus of this passage regarding "the law" had to do with circumcision.

Romans was written to show that there was no preferential treatment given to any group on the face of the earth. The Jews of that time thought that because of their ethnicity and their circumcision and their maleness (they believed that women and Gentiles were "dogs" who were without souls and would not enter the Kingdom) that they had basically a free pass into the Kingdom. St. Paul's labors in Romans are expressly to put this idea to rest, especially their reliance on circumcision.

Now....if you want the full version with all the theological underpinnings, contact Scott Hahn at Franciscan University of Steubenville and I'm sure he will set you straight on this.

I can see that you have no problem in "adding" to the word of God if it suits your purpose.There is never any condition in regard to the fact that the believer is "sealed" by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption,the redemption of our immortal bodies.

The "seal" of the Holy Spirit is simply an identifying mark which sets the professing believer apart from the rest of the world as belonging to God. It is not I who am adding to the Word of God. It is you who is redifining terms to suit your OSAS heresy.

St. Paul wrote warnings against falling away in every one of his epistles except one. Strange behavior for one whom you claim was teaching OSAS.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after ye believed ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession"(Eph.1:13,14).

Yes, Jerry, I see that you can quote scripture. Now answer me this. WHAT exactly does it mean that the Holy Spirit is the "earnest of our inheritance?" I want to hear it from your own keypad please.

There are absolutely no "conditions" in the words of Paul.The believer is "sealed" by the Holy Spirit after he believes and he will remain sealed "until the redemption of the purchased possession".PERIOD

Wrong again. Our relationship to God is a covenant and covenants are CONDITIONAL. They can be broken. This is why St. Paul wrote to believers warning them against falling away.

Yer answer please. And BTW -- I added nothing to the Word of God....you just don't like Catholic exegesis.

Here is just one example of St. Paul's writings in which he states what I said...you git eternal life only if you remain faithful to the end

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Seems that St. Paul had no knowledge of OSAS either.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
I have heard it taught that the reference to the "law" in Romans had to do primarily with the ceremonial law of God as given to the Jews in rites they were to perform.

CatholicConvert,

Of course the teachers of Rome would say that the term "the law" in Romans is in reference to only the "ceremonial law",and that is because Rome teaches that one must observe the Ten Comandments in order to attain eternal life.

But how can it be said that the following verse from Romans is not in regard to the Ten Commandments?:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin"(Ro.3:20).

Here we can see that the term "the law" is in regard to the Ten COmmandments,and that is because it is the Ten Commandments that "is the knowledge of sin.".Paul says the following later in the same epistle:

"Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet"(Ro.7:7).

And the commandment that "Thou shalt not covet" is the Tenth Commandment:

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's"(Ex.20:17).

So the following verse is not in regard to the "ceremonial law",but instead to the Ten Commandments:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin"(Ro.3:20).

if you want the full version with all the theological underpinnings, contact Scott Hahn at Franciscan University of Steubenville and I'm sure he will set you straight on this.

Why should I listen to someone who says that "the law" in Romans is in reference to the "ceremonial law" when I have already proven that Paul is speaking about the "Ten Commandments".

And I wonder what you say about the following verses where Paul says that the Ten Commandments ("written and engraved in stones") has been "done away" and "abolished":

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious....For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious....And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished"(2Cor.3:7,11,13).

That which is written and engraved in stones,the Ten Commandments,have been abolished in regard to man's salvation.

It is not I who am adding to the Word of God. It is you who is redifining terms to suit your OSAS heresy.

I quoted the verses as they are written,and these verses are "unconditional" statements that say that as soon as one believes they are sealed UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.It does not say that they are sealed unto the day of redemption if they do this or not do that.You are adding "conditions" that are not there.

St. Paul wrote warnings against falling away in every one of his epistles except one. Strange behavior for one whom you claim was teaching OSAS.

Give me any verse that you want concerning "falling away" and I will demonstrate that Paul is not speaking about "falling away" from being saved.

WHAT exactly does it mean that the Holy Spirit is the "earnest of our inheritance?" I want to hear it from your own keypad please.

The Lord has promised those who believe that they will inherit new,glorious immortal bodies when they meet the Lord in the air.

The Holy Spirit Who seals is a deposit guaranteering that inheritance."...an earnest, i.e. money which in purchases is given as a pledge that the full amount will subsequently be paid"("Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon").

It guarantees the believers inheritance of a new,immortal body.The Lord makes a "pledge" that He will deliver and the Holy Spirit is His "earnest" that He will fulfill His promise.You would have us believe that even though the Lord pledges to deliver what He promises that He might go back on His word.

Our relationship to God is a covenant and covenants are CONDITIONAL. They can be broken.

Some Covenants are conditional and others are not.

Here is just one example of St. Paul's writings in which he states what I said...you git eternal life only if you remain faithful to the end

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end

This verse is better rendered "we are partners with the Christ".This is in regard to "ruling" with the Lord as His companions when HE will rule on the earth.

But this privledge to rule with Him is contingent on continuing fidelity--if we hold firmly to the end the confidence that we had at first.In this connection the following verse comes to mind:

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations.And he shall rule them with a rod of iron"(Rev.2:26,27).

I have answered all of your points,now please address Romans 3:20 and 2Cor.3:7-13.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

CatholicConvert,

You said:

Seems that St. Paul had no knowledge of OSAS either.

If he did not believe that his salvation was assured,why would he write the following words?:

"And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever"(2Tim.4:18).

Paul knew that the Lord would preserve him unto the heavenly kingdom.And since it is the Lord Who is doing the "preserving" then we know that those who are said to be preserved will indeed be preserved.

In His grace,--Jerry

[ November 20, 2003, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: Jerry Shugart ]

 

[Justified Saint]

Earlier I said that no one is justified by observing the law

Good, looks like Catholics would be in complete agreement with you then. So, why do Catholics think the Ten Commandments are still relevant? Maybe because abstaining from sin is still relevant. Maybe abstaining from lying, theft, disrespect, adultery and murder are still relevant. Maybe Paul writing that murderers and adulterers will not inherit the kindgom of God is still relevant. Maybe Jesus telling the rich man to keep the commandments(yes the big 10) is still relevant.

Avoiding sin is something that true members of the body of Christ would want to do, not because they think they have to or that it will justify them.

 

[Yelsew]

CatholicConvert, If you are going to use "ETERNAL LIFE" as the reason to partake of the Eucharist, e.g.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

and then say that FAITH ALONE is bad doctrine

Interesting, isn't it Ray? Jesus said nothing about "faith alone" confering eternal life. Salvation, yes. "Believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

is to completely discredit Jesus For he also said

[John 3:16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Furthermore, Unbelievers do not willingly partake of the Eucharist unless deceived into doing so. So it all comes back to FAITH ALONE! Faith preceeds everything spiritual! Faith is sufficient unto eternal life.

Now Brother Ed a couple questions that you need to answer: When Jesus saves, the saved one is:

SAVED FROM WHAT?

SAVED INTO WHAT?

 

[Yelsew]

Jerry Shugart said,

Again we can see that there are no "conditions" in this "unconditional" statement.Paul says very clearly that the believer is "sealed unto the day of redemption".

Unless of course, you grieve the Holy Spirit into leaving you. Holiness and sinfulness cannot co-exist.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Justified Saint:
Good, looks like Catholics would be in complete agreement with you then. So, why do Catholics think the Ten Commandments are still relevant?

Justified Saint,

The discussion is the fact that Rome teaches that the Christian must observe the Ten Commandments in order to attain salvation.

That is "works" salvation.But the Scriptures reveal that the sinner is saved by "grace",and "if by grace then it is no more of works"(Ro.11:6).

Maybe because abstaining from sin is still relevant. Maybe abstaining from lying, theft, disrespect, adultery and murder are still relevant. Maybe Paul writing that murderers and adulterers will not inherit the kindgom of God is still relevant. Maybe Jesus telling the rich man to keep the commandments(yes the big 10) is still relevant.

Avoiding sin is something that true members of the body of Christ would want to do, not because they think they have to or that it will justify them.

No one ever said that one should not keep himself "holy".However,keeping ourselvs "holy" is a part of our "service",and not a matter of salvation:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service"(Ro.12:1).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
...and then say that FAITH ALONE is bad doctrine </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Interesting, isn't it Ray? Jesus said nothing about "faith alone" confering eternal life. Salvation, yes. "Believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

is to completely discredit Jesus For he also said

[John 3:16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

</font>[/QUOTE]So it comes down to what "believing" actually entails. Is it a one-time action? If so, how long does it take? A second? Less? More? Or, is it a way of life?

If it's a way of life, what does it mean to spend a life believing in Christ? Do we really believe in Christ if we don't do what He says we are to do? Do we believe in Him if we don't love Him? And can we love Him without doing what He tells us to do? Do we believe in Him if we don't do the "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph.2:10)

There's a whole lot of theology wrapped up in "believeth"!

What I think (drumroll!) is that a lot of you folks refuse to acknowledge that there can be a faith that doesn't automatically and inevitably lead to good works. And yet James warns us against that very thing.