RULE#1 For anything to be Officially Christian it must be found in the scriptures.

[Yeshua1]

Funny, the Apostles and the early deacons performed water baptism on only the believers via immersion, starting at Pentacost. Yet you say it didn't happen until 1609. Perhaps you just aren't well read.
Funny how other "traditions" got added decades and centuries later. Funny how some of those "traditions" got so twisted that they replaced the gospel of grace with the not gospel of works.
How can we know what got added as a tradition? We read the Bible and we compare God's word with human traditions. When the traditions conflict with God's word...we throw out the tradition. Simple...unless a person worships tradition...

Rome had to add extra biblical books and traditions to the inspired scriptures, in order to hold to her dogmas and practices, as b bile alone will not support them!

 

[utilyan]

Actually all people have a double standard, one for them, and the other for how they reconcile every other humans thoughts coming at them.

I propose the point, no human can have an original thought that they themselves came up with. The brain does not work that way. It is not a thought generator on it's own. Thought comes from God the majority of human understanding. Satan places skeptical thoughts questioning God's thoughts. Who knows where thoughts come from to those who open their minds to demonic activity? Which is your point. To test thought, the Word of God is the only tangible reliable source to compare them with. The brain takes in billions of points of data, consciously and unconsciously. The mind filters all of this data, and gives it to you to process. That is where thoughts come from. We just recycle thoughts that have been around for 7000 years.

"I propose the point, no human can have an original thought that they themselves came up with. The brain does not work that way. "

Thinking commonly is a sign of a failed confidence, bouncing off a mirror. The "common" state of mankind's confidence (trust/faith) is so SHOT they literally tell themselves what they know.

I suggest you investigate your theory of it being involuntary rather then volitional.

Sit down and listen for a thought, the way a mouse looks at a mouse hole ready to pounce. This is called mindfulness,alertness, being in the present moment, here and now.

If you are at your JOB of listening..........there is nothing emptiness.

If you neglect to listen which is caused by desire, restlessness, tupor/sloth, ill will,and/or doubt, you will find you are the author of your thoughts.

The word of God touches on this.
Matthew 6

27Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

My understanding stature is your size, cubit a unit of volume. Thinking is not going to make you greater. Thinking won't make you live longer.


Matthew 6
22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Thats Jedi stuff. Your focus determines your reality. Its being single is focus. If your thinking or under anxiety, fearing the future, you are going to get a distortion not seeing things for what they are. If you can understand the Devil being THE ACCUSER, Every single problem in your life can be traced to an accusation you make on the content of the events taking place in reality.

Trust, faith, confidence, knowing are on the same team. Mis-trust, accusation, no-confidence, and thinking are on the other.

When you woke up this morning you know its you. Its something you have more confidence with, doesn't need to be debated. Thinking is like having to go to the mirror and check. Its like not trusting yourself with things you KNOW. If you can understand the difference between KNOWING and THINKING.

If you can understand mind with input and output. Input is all the data you are taking in, sounds, thoughts, sights, smells, when you doing the listening and hearing. OUTPUT is your opinion, thoughts, speaking, all responses.

The practice and SELF-DISCIPLINE is being able to be receptive, listening, psalm 46:10 “Be still, and know that I am God"
Like military.....ATTENTION! be at attention and listen for God.

 

[Drifter]

Rome had to add extra biblical books and traditions to the inspired scriptures, in order to hold to her dogmas and practices, as b bile alone will not support them!

Friend, even the Dead Sea Scrolls have Deuterocanonical books. It’s not like the bishops woke up one day and decided to add stuff to the Old Testament.

 

[Adonia]

John the Baptist started his ministry before Jesus. In fact John baptized Jesus. That is all the history that God required. Does history record every detail of your life? Do you exist? You do claim to be some god, so why are you insisting on non relative facts?

John the Baptist DID NOT start the Baptist faith tradition. Look, if the early church was Baptist as some here claim, then that would have been the doctrine that went forward from the beginning, but the historical record shows that is clearly not the case.

The Christian Church evolved with a central authority that decided things for the rest of all Christendom. There were no independent churches that decided things for themselves as the letters written by St. Paul clearly indicates.

A perfect example is what is written in Acts 16 which states:

1Paul came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was Jewish and a believer but whose father was a Greek. 2The believers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. 4As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey. 5So the churches were strengthened in the faith and grew daily in numbers.

St. Paul's letter to the Corinthians was the same, a person from the central authority of the new Christian faith telling the outlying churches where they were messing up and what they must do to get things right. Over and over again we see guidance and dictates from the central authority of the one Christian Church.

 

[timtofly]

John the Baptist DID NOT start the Baptist faith tradition. Look, if the early church was Baptist as some here claim, then that would have been the doctrine that went forward from the beginning, but the historical record shows that is clearly not the case.

The Christian Church evolved with a central authority that decided things for the rest of all Christendom. There were no independent churches that decided things for themselves as the letters written by St. Paul clearly indicates.

A perfect example is what is written in Acts 16 which states:

1Paul came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was Jewish and a believer but whose father was a Greek. 2The believers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. 4As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey. 5So the churches were strengthened in the faith and grew daily in numbers.

St. Paul's letter to the Corinthians was the same, a person from the central authority of the new Christian faith telling the outlying churches where they were messing up and what they must do to get things right. Over and over again we see guidance and dictates from the central authority of the one Christian Church.

I am not sure why you think that the Scriptures is not the central theme around which the early church took it's doctrine and guidance? There was not one central church, nor does your verse prove that. The apostles and disciples went all over the world. That they settled in any one city cannot be proven by one verse. The term Christian was given to those in Antioch, not even Jerusalem. There were "central" churches all over with stronger congregations helping out newer ones. There was never just one single central church.

Your verse does not even say what was taught. How can you prove Baptism was missing?

 

[utilyan]

I am not sure why you think that the Scriptures is not the central theme around which the early church took it's doctrine and guidance? There was not one central church, nor does your verse prove that. The apostles and disciples went all over the world. That they settled in any one city cannot be proven by one verse. The term Christian was given to those in Antioch, not even Jerusalem. There were "central" churches all over with stronger congregations helping out newer ones. There was never just one single central church.

Your verse does not even say what was taught. How can you prove Baptism was missing?

The central theme has been around before it was written about.

1 timothy 1

5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

Can the scriptures PROVE THIS to be true to you?

No because Its something YOU HAVE TO SEE, and live, and do.

The goal of love from a pure heart has always been around since the moment of birth.

Don't you carry it with you? Since before it was written the one who authored it had to carry it with him before he decided to write it all down.

If CLEARY God is acting in your life it doesn't matter if someone is writting it down or reading it, your already in direct contact the entire boss.

If God shows up say WAKE UP TIMOTHY..........wait a minute fellah....i haven't seen anyone writing about this. NO you obviously seeing the authority in authority. on the other hand If GOD tells you, "you know what wait, from now on even if I do show up just go with whatever i wrote down", he can pull that off too if you need him to.

 

[Drifter]

I am not sure why you think that the Scriptures is not the central theme around which the early church took it's doctrine and guidance? There was not one central church, nor does your verse prove that. The apostles and disciples went all over the world. That they settled in any one city cannot be proven by one verse. The term Christian was given to those in Antioch, not even Jerusalem. There were "central" churches all over with stronger congregations helping out newer ones. There was never just one single central church.

Your verse does not even say what was taught. How can you prove Baptism was missing?

Perhaps it would be true to say that the Church has both a universal and local dimension? It looks to me like the Council of Jerusalem was providing guidance to churches everywhere. I'm not sure it makes complete sense to say that the Council was not authoritative, only its account in Scripture.

 

[timtofly]

The central theme has been around before it was written about.

1 timothy 1

5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

Can the scriptures PROVE THIS to be true to you?

No because Its something YOU HAVE TO SEE, and live, and do.

The goal of love from a pure heart has always been around since the moment of birth.

Don't you carry it with you? Since before it was written the one who authored it had to carry it with him before he decided to write it all down.

If CLEARY God is acting in your life it doesn't matter if someone is writting it down or reading it, your already in direct contact the entire boss.

If God shows up say WAKE UP TIMOTHY..........wait a minute fellah....i haven't seen anyone writing about this. NO you obviously seeing the authority in authority. on the other hand If GOD tells you, "you know what wait, from now on even if I do show up just go with whatever i wrote down", he can pull that off too if you need him to.

Yes, God writes His Word in our hearts, and seal us with the Holy Spirit from the day we are conceived. And we know and understand it, because that is what the Bible tells us. In hindsight we can look back, after reading God's Word, that God has been there all the time in our lives.

 

[timtofly]

Perhaps it would be true to say that the Church has both a universal and local dimension? It looks to me like the Council of Jerusalem was providing guidance to churches everywhere. I'm not sure it makes complete sense to say that the Council was not authoritative, only its account in Scripture.

Any church is authoritative because it does use Scripture, God's written Word. The one reason that in today's world not just one church can support all of its own missionaries as just one singular source, is because the whole burden is spread equally over hundreds of churches. That way the members of one church are in agreement together in prayer with lots of other churches and members for one particular misionary, instead of the missionary only having a few people praying for them.

 

[Adonia]

I am not sure why you think that the Scriptures is not the central theme around which the early church took it's doctrine and guidance?

Because the NT scriptures as we now know them were not in existence - it's that simple. At that time it was mostly a word of mouth thing. Once they were written what do we then read? Every gathering was centered around "the breaking of bread" i.e. the Lords Supper, a quite unlike Baptist mode of worship which has the pulpit as it's focus.

There was not one central church, nor does your verse prove that. The apostles and disciples went all over the world

And what did they do? They told the churches that were all over the world how to act, what doctrine to follow. The local churches were not free to act nor teach what they wanted and the scriptures make that abundantly clear.

There was never just one single central church.

There was but one Universal Christian Church for all \of Christendom and every one of them followed the teachings of the central authority and the scriptures make that abundantly clear. If one strayed from the official teachings they were they were called heretical.

How can you prove Baptism was missing?

The act of baptizing people was not missing, it was the Baptist Church that was not in existence at that time. The Baptist doctrines that you now follow came about in the 17th century, doctrines that rejected most of the orthodox Christian teachings up until that time. John Smythe the founder of the Baptist faith was a former Anglican priest as you should surely know.

 

[Adonia]

Any church is authoritative because it does use Scripture, God's written Word. The one reason that in today's world not just one church can support all of its own missionaries as just one singular source, is because the whole burden is spread equally over hundreds of churches. That way the members of one church are in agreement together in prayer with lots of other churches and members for one particular misionary, instead of the missionary only having a few people praying for them.

You guys get it wrong. The Church has authority and the scriptures are authoritative. Is that what God really wanted, hundreds of churches? I don't think so. It was the hubris of some men who strayed from the orthodox teachings of Christianity thinking that they knew better than what was being taught. Hundreds of churches has torn apart the Body of Christ is all that really happened. We have competing doctrines and in the old days we killed each other over them. No, I don't think that is not what God would have wanted.

 

[timtofly]

Because the NT scriptures as we now know them were not in existence - it's that simple. At that time it was mostly a word of mouth thing. Once they were written what do we then read? Every gathering was centered around "the breaking of bread" i.e. the Lords Supper, a quite unlike Baptist mode of worship which has the pulpit as it's focus.

The original 11 plus Paul started churches, and the NT is that history, their writings, and writings to the churches. It was their spreading the Gospel that churches sprang up. These churches had disciples that then went out and started more churches. These churches had disciples who went out, etc. No, saying the authority was in a single group is not correct. Every new church sent out disciples with the same authority from multiple churches.

And what did they do? They told the churches that were all over the world how to act, what doctrine to follow. The local churches were not free to act nor teach what they wanted and the scriptures make that abundantly clear.

No, all churches had their own disciples with their own authority.

There was but one Universal Christian Church for all \of Christendom and every one of them followed the teachings of the central authority and the scriptures make that abundantly clear. If one strayed from the official teachings they were they were called heretical.

No the Scriptures came about because there were dozens of churches, and the letters in the NT were coming from all over, to each other. Thousands of manuscripts over thousands of miles, and dozens of local churches.

You keep applying what happened between the 3rd and 5th centuries to the 1st and 2nd. History does not go backwards. After the first 150 years, the church and spread did grow cold, as the original sunami of the Gospel went around the world and subsided. Especially as the original disciples eventually died, and the next few generations of disciples were not as dedicated as the first generation were.

The act of baptizing people was not missing, it was the Baptist Church that was not in existence at that time. The Baptist doctrines that you now follow came about in the 17th century, doctrines that rejected most of the orthodox Christian teachings up until that time. John Smythe the founder of the Baptist faith was a former Anglican priest as you should surely know.

Since I do not accept you have all the knowledge of all time and people everywhere, I will have to pass on anything you claim.

 

[timtofly]

You guys get it wrong. The Church has authority and the scriptures are authoritative. Is that what God really wanted, hundreds of churches? I don't think so. It was the hubris of some men who strayed from the orthodox teachings of Christianity thinking that they knew better than what was being taught. Hundreds of churches has torn apart the Body of Christ is all that really happened. We have competing doctrines and in the old days we killed each other over them. No, I don't think that is not what God would have wanted.

You do realize that it was Constantine who wanted a centralized church and a government to back it up? Constantine is not Jesus Christ. No single human no matter how set apart from reality, can claim a central rule of authority. The Holy Spirit of God, from God Himself dwells in all humans. Most are not even aware of that fact. Can a man take the place of God? Some deny that God gives His own plan. They claim God is in error, and only humans can explain God to other humans.

 

[Particular]

"I propose the point, no human can have an original thought that they themselves came up with. The brain does not work that way. "

Thinking commonly is a sign of a failed confidence, bouncing off a mirror. The "common" state of mankind's confidence (trust/faith) is so SHOT they literally tell themselves what they know.

I suggest you investigate your theory of it being involuntary rather then volitional.

Sit down and listen for a thought, the way a mouse looks at a mouse hole ready to pounce. This is called mindfulness,alertness, being in the present moment, here and now.

If you are at your JOB of listening..........there is nothing emptiness.

If you neglect to listen which is caused by desire, restlessness, tupor/sloth, ill will,and/or doubt, you will find you are the author of your thoughts.

The word of God touches on this.
Matthew 6

27Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

My understanding stature is your size, cubit a unit of volume. Thinking is not going to make you greater. Thinking won't make you live longer.


Matthew 6
22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Thats Jedi stuff. Your focus determines your reality. Its being single is focus. If your thinking or under anxiety, fearing the future, you are going to get a distortion not seeing things for what they are. If you can understand the Devil being THE ACCUSER, Every single problem in your life can be traced to an accusation you make on the content of the events taking place in reality.

Trust, faith, confidence, knowing are on the same team. Mis-trust, accusation, no-confidence, and thinking are on the other.

When you woke up this morning you know its you. Its something you have more confidence with, doesn't need to be debated. Thinking is like having to go to the mirror and check. Its like not trusting yourself with things you KNOW. If you can understand the difference between KNOWING and THINKING.

If you can understand mind with input and output. Input is all the data you are taking in, sounds, thoughts, sights, smells, when you doing the listening and hearing. OUTPUT is your opinion, thoughts, speaking, all responses.

The practice and SELF-DISCIPLINE is being able to be receptive, listening, psalm 46:10 “Be still, and know that I am God"
Like military.....ATTENTION! be at attention and listen for God.

Are you a neuro-scientist, utilyan? I doubt it. You're coming across as a person who has watched the Matrix one too many times.

 

[Particular]

John the Baptist DID NOT start the Baptist faith tradition. Look, if the early church was Baptist as some here claim, then that would have been the doctrine that went forward from the beginning, but the historical record shows that is clearly not the case.

The Christian Church evolved with a central authority that decided things for the rest of all Christendom. There were no independent churches that decided things for themselves as the letters written by St. Paul clearly indicates.

A perfect example is what is written in Acts 16 which states:

1Paul came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was Jewish and a believer but whose father was a Greek. 2The believers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. 4As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey. 5So the churches were strengthened in the faith and grew daily in numbers.

St. Paul's letter to the Corinthians was the same, a person from the central authority of the new Christian faith telling the outlying churches where they were messing up and what they must do to get things right. Over and over again we see guidance and dictates from the central authority of the one Christian Church.

Well that settles it. The Holy Church at Jerusalem is the Real Church!!! [emoji849]

 

[Particular]

The central theme has been around before it was written about.

1 timothy 1

5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

Can the scriptures PROVE THIS to be true to you?

No because Its something YOU HAVE TO SEE, and live, and do.

The goal of love from a pure heart has always been around since the moment of birth.

Don't you carry it with you? Since before it was written the one who authored it had to carry it with him before he decided to write it all down.

If CLEARY God is acting in your life it doesn't matter if someone is writting it down or reading it, your already in direct contact the entire boss.

If God shows up say WAKE UP TIMOTHY..........wait a minute fellah....i haven't seen anyone writing about this. NO you obviously seeing the authority in authority. on the other hand If GOD tells you, "you know what wait, from now on even if I do show up just go with whatever i wrote down", he can pull that off too if you need him to.

Ironic that you quote scripture when you're all about tradition...

 

[Particular]

Because the NT scriptures as we now know them were not in existence - it's that simple. At that time it was mostly a word of mouth thing. Once they were written what do we then read? Every gathering was centered around "the breaking of bread" i.e. the Lords Supper, a quite unlike Baptist mode of worship which has the pulpit as it's focus.



And what did they do? They told the churches that were all over the world how to act, what doctrine to follow. The local churches were not free to act nor teach what they wanted and the scriptures make that abundantly clear.



There was but one Universal Christian Church for all \of Christendom and every one of them followed the teachings of the central authority and the scriptures make that abundantly clear. If one strayed from the official teachings they were they were called heretical.



The act of baptizing people was not missing, it was the Baptist Church that was not in existence at that time. The Baptist doctrines that you now follow came about in the 17th century, doctrines that rejected most of the orthodox Christian teachings up until that time. John Smythe the founder of the Baptist faith was a former Anglican priest as you should surely know.

Adonia, you are adding a "central authority." Which central authority? Paul? Peter? John? Thomas? Barnabas? Phillip? Which one?

The entire "central authority" concept is a control teaching of your denomination. It's no different than the scare tactics of Islam, Mormonism or Jehovah's Witness.

 

[utilyan]

Are you a neuro-scientist, utilyan? I doubt it. You're coming across as a person who has watched the Matrix one too many times.

Its all biblical.

Matthew 6
25“For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

People hear what Jesus teaches, sounds deep, sounds wise, but its taken for granted, "said" to be believed, never even remotely practiced

34“So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

 

[utilyan]

Ironic that you quote scripture when you're all about tradition...

Scripture is tradition. Someone has to be few cans short of a 6-pack if they don't know the goal of Christianity until they read it.

 

[Particular]

Its all biblical.

Matthew 6
25“For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

People hear what Jesus teaches, sounds deep, sounds wise, but its taken for granted, "said" to be believed, never even remotely practiced

34“So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

None of these verses even remotely relate to what you claimed. Did you just open the Bible randomly and quote?