Salary figure for a pastor

[hamricba]

I know in some African-American churches, a separate love offering is taken on Sundays to support the pastor. His salary is whatever is given. In some larger urban churches, this was amounting to a few thousand dollars every week!

Personally, I like that model, regardless of what income level it provides. Yes, one must walk on faith to know where and how God will provide their income. It may mean the pastor needs to have another vocation (BTW, even the Mormons do this and continue to grow), but that may be better for the glory of God than the church seeing their pastor as "their employee."

I don't think our brother here is arguing for unpaid pastors. I think he is challenging the manner in which they are paid, and how that forms the church's view of pastoral ministry and ultimately, of God.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by ccrobinson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />&lt;snip&gt;Ok, so you don't think pastors should get a fixed salary. I find no direct Biblical teaching on this to dispute you and I'm not going to debate that point. However, what's your alternative? Do you have an alternative that actually works in this real, imperfect world? Do you have an alternative that lets the church manage its finances in a responsible way? All I've seen so far are rants against the church but no practical ways to fix what you see as a problem.

How about trying faith and dependence on the Lord ? Church life and Christianity has always been designed by the Lord to be totally different from the 'practicality' and 'pragmatism' of the world, you know.
The Pastorate is the highest form of employment in this world, and is directly under the supervision, support, and direction of the King of Kings, who is able to do what to the 'practical and pragmatic' mind of man is impossible.
Or will you also question dependence on the Lord for both the church and the Pastor, to be impractical and impossible ?


pinoybaptist wrote:

he should work to support his family like everybody else

You say this is as if pastors don't work. We have 4 men on our pastoral staff and they all work very hard and they all work in excess of 40-50 hours every week. They work just as hard as anybody else.

Like it or not, there is an element of running a business in the church. Things like heat, a/c, water, supplies for ministry have to be paid for and managing church finances does dictate that sound, disciplined business practices be involved. This includes managing a budget and if you don't have a set salary for the pastors, then how do you manage a budget in a disciplined manner?
P/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]And why should the church budget tip over just because there is no fixed salary for a pastor ? I find that an absurd statement

I may be the only one, but I'm willing to concede the point that the Bible doesn't teach that a pastor should get a fixed salary. I find nothing unbiblical about the practice of paying the pastor a fixed salary.

Nothing unbiblical ?
To teach something which the Bible doesn't call for is not unbiblical ? If there is nothing in the Bible to support a doctrine or practice for a New Testament church, then finding nothing that opposes it doesn't justify its existence in any church calling itself New Testament.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by hamricba:
I know in some African-American churches, a separate love offering is taken on Sundays to support the pastor. His salary is whatever is given. In some larger urban churches, this was amounting to a few thousand dollars every week!

Personally, I like that model, regardless of what income level it provides. Yes, one must walk on faith to know where and how God will provide their income. It may mean the pastor needs to have another vocation (BTW, even the Mormons do this and continue to grow), but that may be better for the glory of God than the church seeing their pastor as "their employee."

I don't think our brother here is arguing for unpaid pastors. I think he is challenging the manner in which they are paid, and how that forms the church's view of pastoral ministry and ultimately, of God.

Thank you, sir.
You got closer to my point than most here.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ccrobinson:

&lt;snip&gt;Ok, so you don't think pastors should get a fixed salary. I find no direct Biblical teaching on this to dispute you and I'm not going to debate that point. However, what's your alternative? Do you have an alternative that actually works in this real, imperfect world? Do you have an alternative that lets the church manage its finances in a responsible way? All I've seen so far are rants against the church but no practical ways to fix what you see as a problem.

How about trying faith and dependence on the Lord? Church life and Christianity has always been designed by the Lord to be totally different from the 'practicality' and 'pragmatism' of the world, you know.</font>

Whose faith and dependence on the Lord? Often the faithful will provide for the pastor but the faithless too often use faith as an excuse. I wonder how many would work for an employer on the same basis? There is no difference.

For years I have been self emplyed and had faith that God would see me through. But I didn't wait for someone else to handle my affairs and money. But I also had other ways to provide for my family. Once I pastored a chruch and told them they didn't need me as pastor. They asked me what I would do. I told them it was not what I was going to do but what they were going to do. I told them I would be willing to get a full time job and pastor the chruch is they would knock on doors with me and do ministry. Not one propsoed that I do that. Instead they got busy and became a very good church. They started doing ministry and visiting people. Sevral of those same people within a one year had Bible studies they led in the community.

When I hired people I have never once ever had a Christian tell me he was willing to work on the basis of faith. He wanted a paycheck.

Years ago I attended a church that took up offerings for the pastor's salary. It got to the point where it was way more than he needed. So the church went to a budget and gave more to missions.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
Thank you, sir.
You got closer to my point than most here.

Tomorrow I want you to go to your employer and tell them that you are willing to be paid on the basis of their faith when they have the money.

I have always operated my business on the basis of faith but never expected my employees to do what is my responsibility as their employer.

When I look around at all the nice cars in the parking lots of churches and nice homes and people loaded with debt it tells me that we can pay a lot more than we do if people were not so greedy.

 

[ccrobinson]

Posted by pinoybaptist:
How about trying faith and dependence on the Lord ? Church life and Christianity has always been designed by the Lord to be totally different from the 'practicality' and 'pragmatism' of the world, you know.
The Pastorate is the highest form of employment in this world, and is directly under the supervision, support, and direction of the King of Kings, who is able to do what to the 'practical and pragmatic' mind of man is impossible. Or will you also question dependence on the Lord for both the church and the Pastor, to be impractical and impossible ?

And how does using a budget limit faith and dependence on God? The pastor still has to walk by faith that God will provide enough money to pay all the expenses incurred by the ministry, including salaries.

Nothing unbiblical ? To teach something which the Bible doesn't call for is not unbiblical ? If there is nothing in the Bible to support a doctrine or practice for a New Testament church, then finding nothing that opposes it doesn't justify its existence in any church calling itself New Testament.

So, we should only do things in the church that are specifically stated in the Bible? If it's not explicitly stated, then it's unbiblical and we should get rid of it, right?

 

[All about Grace]

Our philosophy is that we pay pastors and staff comparably close to what a person of equal responsibility and leadership would make in a "secular" job.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by All about Grace:
Our philosophy is that we pay pastors and staff comparably close to what a person of equal responsibility and leadership would make in a "secular" job.

That is good that you respect and honor your pastor so well.

 

[Bob Farnaby]

The salary we pay our pastor is that reccomended by the Baptist Union of Victoria (Australia).

It is the average wage of a male worker in the state, enough to live reasonably on, not enough to get rich on or do the job just for the money.

The figure is adjusted annualy in line with government figures. The salary is/can be packaged in some different ways within the taxation laws.

We pay pro rata if the position is part time.

Regards
Bob

 

[Brother Ian]

Originally posted by dh1948:
If double honor is due a pastor, does that mean that he should make double what the average head of household in his church makes??

I don't think that anyone has to worry about their pastor being overpaid.

Doesn't the IRS say that a pastor cannot be paid in excess of $100K per year?

No, in this context, the double honor is that he gets paid AND he has the honor of being the pastor.

 

[fatbacker]

I agree with paying a pastor according to the demographics. If you pay a pastor 60k in a low income neighborhood then people are going to see him as a money grubber and not a pastor and it will always be thrown up in his face.

If you pay a pastor 25k when the people around him ar e in an upper class neighbhorhood then the people will see him as a careless man who squanders his money not realizing his low income.

I think a pastor should earn his wages and should be paid according to the money that the church brings in. I would not know what percentage to put on it but between 10 and 20% of annual church income should be sufficent.

In the old testament the collection plate was not passed around but a box sat in the back of the church for people to go put their money in, I am not exactly sure when the pass the plate thing started but it should be eliminated.

Jesus refered to the old woman putting her last bit of money in the offering and she did it on faith. The pastor likewise should live on faith and a certain amount that the church brings in. So if the pastor is not doing his job and letting the Holy Spirit lead then it will show up in the faithfullness of the church members giving, I guarantee that.

 

[bapmom]

fatbacker,

thats an honorable reasoning you make. However, you must take into account how it will be seen by those "negative neds" around us.

The pastor who gets, annually, a percentage of whatever the church brings in through offerings WILL be accused of trying to pad his own wallet whenever he preaches on giving to God, or tithing, or bringing in new members, or makes any attempt at growing his congregation numerically.

I do not have a doubt in my mind that he would be accused of this loudly and voraciously and publicly, because Ive seen it happen over and over again.....to men who were NOT being paid by their church this way. Imagine the outcry from the church where the pastor "gained profit" by adding new members to his church.

I understand your intention is good in this, but your good would "be evil spoken of."

 

[fatbacker]

Hey Bapmom,

The fact is that no matter what you pay a pastor or what you do in church their will always be the gossip and back biter who will complain but I would go towards what the general membership would agree on. You will always find someone thats not happy with it and those people are just not happy about much of anything and spending to much time trying to appease them is futile at best. I would go with general consensus.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by fatbacker:
The fact is that no matter what you pay a pastor or what you do in church their will always be the gossip and back biter who will complain but I would go towards what the general membership would agree on. You will always find someone thats not happy with it and those people are just not happy about much of anything and spending to much time trying to appease them is futile at best. I would go with general consensus.

If I rememebr right Spurgeon wrote that a church should take the average of the top ten deacons and pay the pastor the same.

If you go with the consensus it will very often be way low. A pastor needs about 1/3 more to have the same standard of living as someone else. The average person has his company retirement, insurance, travel expenses, the company's part of social security, disability and unemployment insurance paid for by the company he works for.

Unless someone is self employed he does not realize how much employees cost the company. In the business I once owned cost me 40 percent above wages to have an employee. Some cost more and some less depending on the job and location.