Salvation and sin

Paul explains his ownself. It is you just fail to see it.


1 Tim 1:

12: And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13: Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14: And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16: Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

You should look where Paul does list the sins he was guilty of, where you can't.

BBob,

 

For the most part I have withdrawn from posting here. I do however still pop in to read once in a while, and the thread that led to this one I found interesting, and felt led to ask this question, then I will let others discuss.

How do you reconcile this verse, where Jesus tells us that someone can break the commandments but will still end up in heaven? It does seem like there can be a loss of rewards ("called least"), for our actions, but in the "kingdom of heaven" (saved) non the less.

 

Obama claims to be a Christian! That's news to me! First time I ever heard it.
Call me wrong if you wish. But I wouldn't bet my house on his Christianity.

 

Heaven is judging you as of now. Believe me they know all about all of us in Heaven as we speak.

 

Then you need to watch news more. Obama has declared to be a Christian for 20 years.

BBob,

Gotta go to a funeral. I will be back if I am still allowed on here. Bye.

 

I believe that in Mat.5:19 Jesus is emphasizing that our faith must be demonstrated by our works. Look at what he says in the following verse:

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This makes verse 19 very clear.
Our righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees.
The scribes and Pharisees had self-righteousness, which the Lord despised.
The Lord wants us to be clothed in his righteousness. Without the righteousness of Christ no man can enter into heaven. It is the righteousness of Christ, our standing before him, that also compels us to go and do the good that he would have us to do.

 

Paul obtained mercy. He was saved. He still concerned himself the chief of sinners, even though his sins were under the blood. His close walk with God made him think that. A studious reading of Romans 7 will bear this out. Consider other Scriptures:

Ephesians 3:7-8 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
--No mention in this passage of his persecution of the church of God. He simply says that he is the least of all saints. He was very humble. He walked close to God. He was very aware of his own sinfulness.

Paul considered himself a great sinner because of his very close walk with God. If there is any who doesn't feel that sense of sinfulness in themselves it is because they are not walking close to God. Scripture bears this truth out.

Isaiah was a very Godly man:
Isaiah 6:3-5 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

When Isaiah saw a vision of God in his glory, he immediately fell to the ground and realized how much of a sinner he was. "Woe is me!...I am a man of unclean (sinful) lips" He realized his own great sinfulness in the presence of a holy God. Every great man of God does.

 

My own research on Obama's Christianity:

Is he really a Christian? One can claim to be a Christian all they want.
James said:


James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law :thumbs:

 

This is a good way for all Christians to feel, then pride won't get in the way. Good for Paul.

Who wasn't under the Law, that is why Jesus came, because the flesh was weak. Even though Paul was weak in the flesh, as we all are, for our temptations, He makes a way for our escape. Yea, Paul consider he held the title for being the worst of all sinners, but not then. You know, I felt exactly the same but Jesus has come now and when Paul spoke, bless God, Jesus had come because we were weak in the flesh, to dwell within us. The strong man was cast out and the stronger man came in. Glory to God.

BBob,

 

To All:

This is somewhat related. Very few are aware of the unusual view of sin that is taken by Bob Wilkin of the Grace Evangelical Society (GES). Most members of the GES share this view.

The following is from the GES website, under the “How Can I Be Saved?” link on the left column on the home page:

Antonio da Rosa (aka Sock Puppet: fg me) wrote,

Wilkin and GES believe there is no sin barrier between God and lost man.

This view of sin is why Wilkin and Zane Hodges believe a lost man does not have to know, understand or believe he is a sinner, nor who Jesus is and what He did to provide salvation, but can still be born again


LM

 

I don't think any regular poster on the BB holds to that view.

 

Charles Stanley also preaches this type of tripe. Repentance is required for salvation(a change of mind), yet they reinterpret this idea through our modern abstract culture. The idea that someone can simply the say "Jesus", and be saved, is absolutely foreign to the Gospels. Repent AND trust to be saved.

Personally, I am borderline LS.

 

You feel exactly the same as Paul?

Paul says: Sin dwells in me.

He says: the things that I do, I don't want to do. (that's sin Bob! Paul admits it. It may even be evil heinous crimes, he doesn't say what sin it is).

He says: the things that I don't want to do, that I do. (That is also sin Bob. Probably great sin).

Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Have you discarded your flesh Bob? Do you now live in Heaven, only in your spirit? Or do you still have a fleshly body like the rest of us? Paul says that "in me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good thing. Are you better than Paul?

 

Why are we trying to rewrite what Paul says and means?

Paul still struggled with sin. Why are some trying to extricate Paul from sin?

After writing a few epistles and forging out a lot of theology, Paul still hadn't arrive (Phil 3:12-14).

DHK, I'm with you on this one.

 

Ps 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

Ps 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Ps 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

Ps 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

 

Yes, I live in sinful flesh, but kept by the power of God, who makes a way for any temptations I or Paul may have.

Absolutely I feel like Paul. I have a desire to be perfect, but the flesh is in the way. Mind you, I am as Paul also and do not

commit the deadly sins. You or no one else on here, including rbell, TC or anyone can show me where Paul after He was

converted committed sins unto death. He had a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet him and so do I. I pray

daily because of sin and lately because of trying to debate with some on here who do not understand scripture. Show me, any

of you, where Paul committed a sin unto death after converted. If Paul taught all of us not to commit those sins and then did

them himself, he would be the biggest hypocrit that ever lived. The same is true with me and all of you. While teaching

others not to commit adultery and then commit it ourselves is completely hypocrital.

Paul felt the exceeding sinfulness of his sin. He classifies himself as the chief or first or foremost of all sinners. When you

stop to look at Paul prior to his conversion you don't see a drunk, or a fornicator. You see a religious man, with strict

adherence to the law. Phil. 3:4-6 enumerates some of his character (as an unregenerate man) and frankly he would be called

a "good man" according to the standards of his day. (see also Acts 26:4-5) Concerning his morals, he was a straight arrow.

But the Lord Jesus Christ changed his life. After realizing what he had done to the Christians, he hangs his head and

remembers the persecution, injury and destruction he placed upon men and women of the faith. He then calls himself "chief"

of all the sinners in the world that Christ came to die for

You think for one minute that Paul taught all this and was guilty himself, after conversion. You do err badly to call Paul such

an hypocrit, and if you are saying that Paul committed such sins as adultery, when he said he was glad he was a single man

so he did not follow after the things of the flesh. After conversion, Paul lived and worked, yes worked for the Lord until he

died. I am trying to follow in his footsteps, that he so Godly laid down for us to walk. He said I would that ye be followers of

me, as I also follow Christ. Awake and arise to righteous, enough of the nonsense, live a good and righteneous life for the

Lord and teach others to do the same. It seems some spend most of their time on here trying to make sin just a bump in the

road, I tell you now, if you teach men that they can get away with adultery, you will answer before God. You shall give an

account for every word that comes out of your mouth.

This is what Paul taught, do you believe or not, will you follow or go the way of man. There are cults that have used the

scripture to set up all kinds of religeon, but it is not the true gospel, but the fables of man.

1 Corth 6

9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor

idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11: And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord

Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

12: All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under

the power of any.

13: Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication,

but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

14: And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

15: Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them

the members of an harlot? God forbid.

I say the same as Apostle Paul, God forbid. If Paul only had of known what men were going to use that passage for and not

be able to see the true meaning. It takes the Spirit to understand the scriptures. To proclaim that Paul was a great sinner

of sins unto death and try to tie them to adultery, and all sins known unto mankind, such as molesting children is an

abomination. I will defend the truth until I die.

Can you truthfully say, that because I teach that a man must live a righteous life, that I am doing a wrong. God help us to

stand on your word as long as we have a breath left in our bodies.

BBob,

 

For clarification's sake, and to help us in discussion, plese list for us the "sins unto death."

 

If they are not written in your heart and mind, I can't help you, other than to tell you to keep His commandments, which is the whole duty of man.
Titus 2:
11: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12: Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15: These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.


Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Eccl: 12:
13: Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14: For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

If this is the whole duty of man, then God Himself provided the list in your heart. Just follow them.

If God created man to keep His commandments, then He will take care of providing man the list. I could go down town and ask a drunk, and he could give me the list, I am sure if he was of sound mind. God taught him.

BBob, make it as sure as you can young man, you will only pass this way but once.

raying:

 

And which sins are those? Paul said: "It is sin that dwells in me." Perhaps it was "the deadly sins." He doesn't say. And you don't know. But sin did dwell in him. He was a sinner to the end of his life.

And you have never shown to any of us what sins unto death are. You have never been able to produce a list of any such sins. But Paul said: "Sin dwells in me." Yes, I can show you Scripture from Romans 7 where Paul says that he is a sinner; sin dwells in him; and in him dwells no good thing." He is speaking of life after salvation, not before. Paul considered himself the chief of sinners.

First show us a list of sins unto death. Where is the list.
Paul admitted to sin. Paul admitted to sin that dwells in him. The tense is in the present. It dwells. It continues to dwell. It is there. It needs to be dealt with.

Just the opposite is true, else we could not teach much of anything. I taught my children to tell the truth; but I am not going to say that I have never told a lie. That would indeed make me the hypocrite. We are all prone to sin. I preach to my congregation to live Godly and Christlike lives. But I dare not say that there have been times when I have not lived Christlike in some way or another. That would make me the hypocrite. We all sin. If you get angry, or lose your temper, or say something that you shouldn't have, then you haven't been Godly in your actions or Christlike in your spirit. If you say that you are always Godlike and Christlike then you are the one that is the hypocrite. Thus it is the opposite of what you say that is true.

Yes, and what about anger, impure thoughts, fear, covetous, gluttony, intemperance (in anything), gossip, lies, or any of the above "deadly" sins. Have you never committed these "deadly" sins? All sins are deadly in God's sight. Any sin can send a person to Hell. God hates them all, and puts no difference between them.

According to his standards; not God's standards.
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

You do err not knowing the Scriptures...
Paul admitted many times in sinning after the flesh.
Perhaps the sins that he committed were sins unto death; we don't know because the Bible doesn't say. Actually we don't know because Bob won't post the list of sins unto death for us.

Paul said: It is sin that dwells in me.
Paul said: In my flesh dwells no good thing.
Paul admitted that he sinned; that he was a sinner.
Paul admitted to these things, but you don't. Are you better than Paul?

That is what Paul taught. But he was still a sinner and still sinned. He still had a sin nature that he struggled with each day. He said in 1Cor.15:31 I die daily. Why did he say that? What did he mean? It means he put the fleshly desires to death as it were, saying no to his wants and yes to the desires of Christ. It means saying no to sin. It infers that there were many times that he did sin. If he didn't sin he wouldn't have to crucify himself; he wouldn't have to die to sin. But he had to do that on a daily basis because every day sin raised its ugly head and had to be dealt with.