Salvation and sin

[Brother Bob]

double post

 

[DHK]

The sins we speak of are sins unto death, of which God does not allow us to commit.

I am interested in what you fellows tell new converts. Hey, got you covered, don't worry about it.

BBob,

"The sins we speak of are sins unto death, of which God does not allow us to commit."

The above statement we don't tell them.
I believe it is heretical.
God never promises that he will keep us from committing any kind of sin. Where do you get that from. There is no such teaching in Scripture.

 

[Brother Bob]

"The sins we speak of are sins unto death, of which God does not allow us to commit."

The above statement we don't tell them.
I believe it is heretical.
God never promises that he will keep us from committing any kind of sin. Where do you get that from. There is no such teaching in Scripture.

So, you fellows tell them, get yourself saved and no matter what sin you commit, you are covered? Greeaaaaaat, you want to talk about heretical, oh boy, what about fables of being Christians who commit incest.

1 John 1:
6: And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7: For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8: Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9: Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10: If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


BBob,

 

[standingfirminChrist]

God does indeed allow us to commit sin, else we would not be told 'My little children, I write unto you that you sin not...'

The key word in the passage you quote, Brother Bob, is 'abideth'. One who sins and abides in God will be convicted of that sin, i.e., David, Paul, Peter, etc..

One who sins a sin that brings death to that one before conviction or confession to God 'abideth not in God,' and is therefore proven to have not been saved, but only a wolf in sheep's clothing or a person who has been deceived into believing God will not punish for sin.

 

[Brother Bob]

God does indeed allow us to commit sin, else we would not be told 'My little children, I write unto you that you sin not...'

The key word in the passage you quote, Brother Bob, is 'abideth'. One who sins and abides in God will be convicted of that sin, i.e., David, Paul, Peter, etc..

One who sins a sin that brings death to that one before conviction or confession to God 'abideth not in God,' and is therefore proven to have not been saved, but only a wolf in sheep's clothing or a person who has been deceived into believing God will not punish for sin.

I can accept the wolve in sheep's clothing theology.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

Ha, sneaky arn't you, but you are wrong as you can be. I was wondering, why is this person who does not care for me, cozying up to me?

I'm your brother, right? I'm SUPPOSED to come along side you and help you bear your burden. Wow! So suspicious! :laugh:

The stronger man comes in and binds the strong man and cast him out.

Do you not believe in Mt 13:22? the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, Do you think that Christians move to another planet when they are saved? Read pinoy's testimony, Bob. Faith starts as a MUSTARD SEED!! You might as well condemn outright every "baby" Christian!

I believe in a strong God and a weak devil when it comes to God's children.

Yeah, I got that. I got that you think the new born spirit always overcomes the flesh.

Father, I have lost none, saving the son of perdition or devil.

Yeah, after 3 years with Christ Himself!!!

If you love me, you WILL keep my commandments.
Many confess me with their mouths, but their hearts are far from me.
As many as are LED by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.
If these things be in you, you shall never fall.

Yeah -- WONDERFUL if you are in heaven! Or in the MK! But there's a BIG IF these things!

I am interested in what you fellows tell new converts. Hey, got you covered, don't worry about it.

Don't let the word get "choked out." Your flesh needs to be "under" your spirit and not vice-versa. Why? Not because God commands it but because it is right and profitable.

Have you ever wondered why John the Baptist didn't tell the King to get saved, then it would be lawful for him to have his brother's Phillips wife??? Instead of losing his head?

I feel you are trying to make a point here. Are you saying that having his brother's wife couldn't be forgiven? Are you saying that John was trying to be martyred? I don't think I am following you and I don't want to accuse you falsely. What are you saying?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

Now see -- this is just one example of how you endeavor to "twist" scripture. There are TWO conditions here: 1) transgression and 2) abiding in Christ. A person -- say the man in 1Cor ? -- could transgress unknowingly/unwittingly or purposely. But unless he also does not abide in Christ, he COULD have God.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Now see -- this is just one example of how you endeavor to "twist" scripture. There are TWO conditions here: 1) transgression and 2) abiding in Christ. A person -- say the man in 1Cor ? -- could transgress unknowingly/unwittingly or purposely. But unless he also does not abide in Christ, he COULD have God.

skypair

God is able to keep the lambs, as well as the sheep.

Trangression is also "not abiding in the doctrine of Christ", so they become one. You say I twist, but you fail to see they are one.

BBob,

Pinoy believes in predestination and he can't be lost, that regardless of what he does before salvation, he will eventually be saved, if he is one of the elect. Or at least, I think that is what Pinoy believes, that he was chosen before the world began as the elect.

 

[webdog]

Man, aren't you guys sin-unto-deathed out already?

 

[DHK]

So, you fellows tell them, get yourself saved and no matter what sin you commit, you are covered? Greeaaaaaat, you want to talk about heretical, oh boy, what about fables of being Christians who commit incest.

No, The Lord saves those that are lost. That is first and foremost.
Second, When the lost are saved, they are saved for all eternity. We believe in eternal security.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
--No condemnation; none whatsoever.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
--"has (present tense) eternal life."
--"shall not come into condemnation."
--is passed from death unto life.

There are literally scores of verses that teach OSAS or the eternal security of the believer. Salvation, once given, can never be lost. It is the gift of God. And God doesn't take it back once it is given. Once a child of God, one doesn't get kicked out of the family. He is a loving God; not vindictive and cruel.

Having established that, we know that God has forgiven all of our sins at salvation: past, present and future. He has forgiven all the sins that I ever have committed, and that I ever will commit, even if perchance I fall into a sin such as adultery.
Christ died for all those sins. They are nailed on the cross. It was his blood that paid the penalty for them--all of them no matter how heinous they may be. They are all forgiven, every one--past, present and future. There is not one sin that he neglected to forgive. They were all taken care of at the cross.

Thus if I sin now (no matter what sin it may be) my salvation is not affected. And it never will be. I am eternally secured in the hand of God. My sin will affect my fellowship with God.

Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
--Sin affects my prayer life; my fellowship with God.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
--Therefore we are admonished to confess our sins to God, so our fellowship with him may be restored.
We do not lose our salvation, only our fellowship is affected.

As for sins unto death, you have no idea what they are. You can't produce a list. Only the Lord knows what they are. You use this as an escape mechanism for your own theology. Only God knows what sins are sins unto death. As far as God is concerned, he wants us to consider all sins equal. Lies are equal to adultery, for example.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--All sins are equal. It is just as bad to lie as it is to murder or commit adultery. Sin is a transgression of the law. It doesn't matter which law. It is all the same in God's sight.

What sends a person to Hell?
The rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour, and nothing else.

 

[Brother Bob]

No, The Lord saves those that are lost. That is first and foremost.
Second, When the lost are saved, they are saved for all eternity. We believe in eternal security.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
--No condemnation; none whatsoever.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
--"has (present tense) eternal life."
--"shall not come into condemnation."
--is passed from death unto life.

There are literally scores of verses that teach OSAS or the eternal security of the believer. Salvation, once given, can never be lost. It is the gift of God. And God doesn't take it back once it is given. Once a child of God, one doesn't get kicked out of the family. He is a loving God; not vindictive and cruel.

Having established that, we know that God has forgiven all of our sins at salvation: past, present and future. He has forgiven all the sins that I ever have committed, and that I ever will commit, even if perchance I fall into a sin such as adultery.
Christ died for all those sins. They are nailed on the cross. It was his blood that paid the penalty for them--all of them no matter how heinous they may be. They are all forgiven, every one--past, present and future. There is not one sin that he neglected to forgive. They were all taken care of at the cross.

Thus if I sin now (no matter what sin it may be) my salvation is not affected. And it never will be. I am eternally secured in the hand of God. My sin will affect my fellowship with God.

Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
--Sin affects my prayer life; my fellowship with God.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
--Therefore we are admonished to confess our sins to God, so our fellowship with him may be restored.
We do not lose our salvation, only our fellowship is affected.

As for sins unto death, you have no idea what they are. You can't produce a list. Only the Lord knows what they are. You use this as an escape mechanism for your own theology. Only God knows what sins are sins unto death. As far as God is concerned, he wants us to consider all sins equal. Lies are equal to adultery, for example.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--All sins are equal. It is just as bad to lie as it is to murder or commit adultery. Sin is a transgression of the law. It doesn't matter which law. It is all the same in God's sight.

What sends a person to Hell?
The rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour, and nothing else.

Jhn 14:21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

If you don't keep His commandments, but commit sins unto death, then you are rejecting Him.

If only God knows the sins unto death, how come you to say that a lie is one of them.

The saved are a much better people than you give credit for. They are not of the world, but chosen out.

John 5:
28: Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


BBob,

 

[tinytim]

No, The Lord saves those that are lost. That is first and foremost.
Second, When the lost are saved, they are saved for all eternity. We believe in eternal security.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
--No condemnation; none whatsoever.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
--"has (present tense) eternal life."
--"shall not come into condemnation."
--is passed from death unto life.

There are literally scores of verses that teach OSAS or the eternal security of the believer. Salvation, once given, can never be lost. It is the gift of God. And God doesn't take it back once it is given. Once a child of God, one doesn't get kicked out of the family. He is a loving God; not vindictive and cruel.

Having established that, we know that God has forgiven all of our sins at salvation: past, present and future. He has forgiven all the sins that I ever have committed, and that I ever will commit, even if perchance I fall into a sin such as adultery.
Christ died for all those sins. They are nailed on the cross. It was his blood that paid the penalty for them--all of them no matter how heinous they may be. They are all forgiven, every one--past, present and future. There is not one sin that he neglected to forgive. They were all taken care of at the cross.

Thus if I sin now (no matter what sin it may be) my salvation is not affected. And it never will be. I am eternally secured in the hand of God. My sin will affect my fellowship with God.

Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
--Sin affects my prayer life; my fellowship with God.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
--Therefore we are admonished to confess our sins to God, so our fellowship with him may be restored.
We do not lose our salvation, only our fellowship is affected.

As for sins unto death, you have no idea what they are. You can't produce a list. Only the Lord knows what they are. You use this as an escape mechanism for your own theology. Only God knows what sins are sins unto death. As far as God is concerned, he wants us to consider all sins equal. Lies are equal to adultery, for example.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--All sins are equal. It is just as bad to lie as it is to murder or commit adultery. Sin is a transgression of the law. It doesn't matter which law. It is all the same in God's sight.

What sends a person to Hell?
The rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour, and nothing else.

That is one of the best posts I have ever seen on BB.
Thank you.

 

[Brother Bob]

That is one of the best posts I have ever seen on BB.
Thank you.

DHK; Thus if I sin now (no matter what sin it may be) my salvation is not affected. And it never will be. I am eternally secured in the hand of God. My sin will affect my fellowship with God.

If you notice this includes incest, pedophile, you name it.

Sure not the best post I ever saw on BB. I consider heretical.

The point being "if I sin now, no matter what sin it may be". If you are kept by the power of God and you commit these deadly sins, then God must be weak and can not keep you.

You are stronger than God, if you commit such sins.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

Pinoy believes in predestination and he can't be lost, that regardless of what he does before salvation, he will eventually be saved, if he is one of the elect. Or at least, I think that is what Pinoy believes, that he was chosen before the world began as the elect.

I was referring to him being saved and then going right back into the pillaging Phillipine communist band he was a member of all along.

I guess you're not too keen on the words "choked out by the world," then, are you?

skypair

 

[MB]

Jhn 14:21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

If you don't keep His commandments, but commit sins unto death, then you are rejecting Him.

So says the Pope. The Pope has never been inspired by God so I don't take anything he says seriously. I'm puzzeled how you can read that verse above and come away with such a view. It doesn't even hint and what you say.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

If only God knows the sins unto death, how come you to say that a lie is one of them.

The wages of sin is death Rom 6:23

The saved are a much better people than you give credit for. They are not of the world, but chosen out.

John 5:
28: Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


BBob,

Check out Rom 8:1
MB

 

[skypair]

DHK; Thus if I sin now (no matter what sin it may be) my salvation is not affected. And it never will be. I am eternally secured in the hand of God.

Dr Rogers used to say of sin -- "I can sin all I want. It's just that now I am saved, I don't want to sin at all!"

My sin will affect my fellowship with God.

No. Of course this is not what we are saying.

The point being "if I sin now, no matter what sin it may be". If you are kept by the power of God and you commit these deadly sins, then God must be weak and can not keep you.

You are stronger than God, if you commit such sins.

Let me explain something that might help you Bob. It is the soul and spirit that are eternally saved. If you look at someone's sin, you are NOT looking at their soul or spirit -- you are looking at the BODY which certainly is NOT saved yet That person may be doing all in their power and the power God has given them ("measure of faith") to get their life into agreement with scriptures. But just so we're clear -- it's the soul and spirit that are OSAS. And even you -- neither by your power nor God's -- have not put your BODY into condition that it is worthy of heaven! Thus, at the rapture even you must have a new body of "celestial glory!"

Now as to God's power applied to us by us -- it isn't "turn on the switch and get the full million volts!" :laugh: In fact, because you have the training you do, you appear to sit on a little throne making these judgments yourself. Is that even the appearance you want to have?

So get OSAS straight -- that it applies to soul and spirit. We'll get new bodies to replace this "original equipment" that contains the "lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, pride of life" original sin nature. And beyond that, the new one WON'T be subject to the temptations of Satan anymore (do you agree that Satan in still more powerful than our flesh?). But this is precisely why there is a sin unto PHYSICAL, not spiritual, DEATH even for born again believers! It confirms one of God's purposes -- to "put an end to bad/evil."

We love you Bob -- and your beautiful wife in the picture. :love2: But if you can't identify the problem, you're not going to be much help to the cause of sanctifying the saints.

skypair

 

[MB]

DHK; Thus if I sin now (no matter what sin it may be) my salvation is not affected. And it never will be. I am eternally secured in the hand of God. My sin will affect my fellowship with God.

If you notice this includes incest, pedophile, you name it.

Sure not the best post I ever saw on BB. I consider heretical.

The point being "if I sin now, no matter what sin it may be". If you are kept by the power of God and you commit these deadly sins, then God must be weak and can not keep you.

You are stronger than God, if you commit such sins.

BBob,

You've missed the point. Many believe they are admitted into heaven by there own righteousness but scripture doesn't support this at all.
Paul wrote;
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

It isn't our righteousness that saves us. This is heresey. This righteousness is our lords righteousness. Man cannot save himself.

MB

 

[Brother Bob]

So says the Pope. The Pope has never been inspired by God so I don't take anything he says seriously. I'm puzzeled how you can read that verse above and come away with such a view. It doesn't even hint and what you say.
Rom 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So says the scripture, I don't care what the Pope says.
Also, I agree with Rom 8:1 for if they are walking after the Spirit, how could they commit sins that bring spiritual death.

The wages of sin is death Rom 6:23

Check out Rom 8:1
MB

Again, I agree the wages of sin is death and not the natural death either, for it is an appointment to all men. It means the second death.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

You've missed the point. Many believe they are admitted into heaven by there own righteousness but scripture doesn't support this at all.
Paul wrote;
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

It isn't our righteousness that saves us. This is heresey. This righteousness is our lords righteousness. Man cannot save himself.

MB

Never have said it was our own righteous.
I have said if you are saved that you will follow the Spirit of God, therefore the sons of God and that Spirit does not lead you to incest and all manner of sin.

The righteous of the Law is fulfilled in us.

That is scripture and incest is not righteous.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Dr Rogers used to say of sin -- "I can sin all I want. It's just that now I am saved, I don't want to sin at all!"

Good saying. I agree
No. Of course this is not what we are saying.

Let me explain something that might help you Bob. It is the soul and spirit that are eternally saved. If you look at someone's sin, you are NOT looking at their soul or spirit -- you are looking at the BODY which certainly is NOT saved yet That person may be doing all in their power and the power God has given them ("measure of faith") to get their life into agreement with scriptures. But just so we're clear -- it's the soul and spirit that are OSAS. And even you -- neither by your power nor God's -- have not put your BODY into condition that it is worthy of heaven! Thus, at the rapture even you must have a new body of "celestial glory!"

I agree, that is why you can't walk after the flesh. If you do you shall die and that is not the natural death either.

Now as to God's power applied to us by us -- it isn't "turn on the switch and get the full million volts!" :laugh: In fact, because you have the training you do, you appear to sit on a little throne making these judgments yourself. Is that even the appearance you want to have?

I have no idea what you are saying here. I judge no one of eternal life, God does. As far as being kept by the power of God, that is scripture. You can take it or leave it. He said my Grace is sufficient for thee.
He also said, I shall never leave you and I guarntee you that he will not go with you to committ incest.


So get OSAS straight -- that it applies to soul and spirit. We'll get new bodies to replace this "original equipment" that contains the "lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, pride of life" original sin nature. And beyond that, the new one WON'T be subject to the temptations of Satan anymore (do you agree that Satan in still more powerful than our flesh?). But this is precisely why there is a sin unto PHYSICAL, not spiritual, DEATH even for born again believers! It confirms one of God's purposes -- to "put an end to bad/evil."

You need to consider what Paul said.

1Cr 9:27But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Now, if you don't do what Paul said and keep your body under subjection by the help of our good Lord, then you yourself are a castaway, according to scripture.


We love you Bob -- and your beautiful wife in the picture. :love2: But if you can't identify the problem, you're not going to be much help to the cause of sanctifying the saints.

skypair

I am content with my ministry, thank you. I also been at it a long time and by the help of the good Lord, I will continue to death.

Thanks for the kind words about my wife and I.

BBob,