Salvation and sin

That is a very dismal and negative outlook on life Bob. I am not sure that it should even be posted; it so unedifying to the point of being not Christian.

One might read a post like that and conclude that the only way to be happy in this life is commit suicide and escape it. That is what I get out of your post. Isn't that what you are advocating when you say: "The ones who get punished are the ones left behind to mourn."
Sad, very sad.

I do hope you will change your outlook on this life. It really isn't all that bad.
To disobey the command: "Rejoice in the Lord always, and again I say rejoice,"

Is just as serious a sin as the sin of committing adultery.
Is it really that bad Bob?

 

Just teaching us how impossible it is for a Christian to commit such an act.

God does allow us to sin a sin not unto death.

You don't believe "to die in Christ is a punishment do you?"

BBob,

 

You are really something DHK; You twist everything a poster puts up that you do not agree with.

The ones left behind do mourn. That is just nature. If you disagree with that, then I just don't know what kind of man you are.

To die in Christ is gain. If you don't believe that, I feel sorry for you.

Why would you ever bring suicide into this discussion is beyond me.

You come up with the sin unto death being physical and then when I tell you that "to die in Christ is gain" how could that be punishment. You then come up with suicide. jeeeeesh.

Your argument just does not hold water if to die in Christ is gain, of which it is. Also, the dead knoweth nothing, so where is the punishment. Now God may take one of His children, to keep him from committing a certain type of sin. He said we are Kept by Him, so He will do whatever is necessary.

But to say it is punishment. You must not believe to be with the Lord is far greater as Paul did and I do.

I want to live as long as the Lord wants me to. I do not want to end up in a nursing home, I pray the Lord will take me home before that might happen. I do not want any artificial means to keep me alive, just let me die, for I will going home to my Lord.

Talk about punishment, is to live to the point you lay there in a comma for years, and your family has to keep looking after you. I don't know if the person in a comma knows anything or not, but the family sure suffers.

There is a time to live and a time to die.

I hope what I posted don't cause you to think about suicide. That was not my purpose. My purpose is that to Christians, to die is gain.


Rev.14

1. [13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

So as you can see, to die in the Lord is not a punishment!! Your argument just does not hold water.

You don't believe "to die in Christ is a punishment do you?"


BBob,

 

Exegesis means to come to the text and explain it in it's context. It means to get the meaning out of the text the way the way the writer meant it.

As opposed to Eisegesis which means applying your meaning to the text.

A person wanting to learn will always try to exegete a text, find the meaning of it... try to understand what it meant to the original reader.
The meaning then can be applied to us.

Ask yourself when you come to a questionable text, "What did the original reader understand that to mean?" Then apply the meaning to your life...

For instance the scripture Bob quoted:
(21) For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain.

When you read it in context, you can see it is talking about Physical death...
Paul is saying that if Christ leaves him here, it will glorify God because Paul is bearing fruit... but if Christ takes him home, Paul gains more than he had... remember he is writing this in a prison cell. When I read this, I am reminded that Paul was just like us... He felt the pains of ministry, and although it would be easier to just give up and go home, He knew Christ was not through with him.

Philippians 1:20-24

(20) According to my earnest expectation and [my] hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but [that] with all boldness, as always, [so] now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether [it be] by life, or by death.

(21) For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain.
(22) But if I live in the flesh, this [is] the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
(23) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
(24) Nevertheless to abide in the flesh [is] more needful for you.
I hope this helped.

 

He doesn't seem to distinguish, does he.

The better model seems to be (and I haven't read it yet) that we are justified eternally in our soul at the rebirth. We are sanctified "definitively" in our spirits simultaneously BUT we are constantly being sanctified "progressively" in this life.
The thing that keeps us back from either "entire santification" or from not sinning is that salvation does nothing directly to the flesh. The flesh doesn't die as salvation else we'd be dead indeed!! Hokoesma, under the Reform model, suggests that the "old man" dies and the "new man" emerges. But under his "old man," he includes the flesh. NO! Your soul may die and resurrect -- your spirit may die and be resurrected by the indwelling spirit -- but your body is the same body! The only possible sanctification for it is keeping the body UNDER the spirit ("dying daily" per 1Cor 15:31) rather than flesh ruling over and misleading the spirit.

NO, we were freed of those "bonds" at salvation! We can still be tempted by our flesh if we don't put our body under, 1Cor 9:26. In fact, what do you think the armor" in Eph 6 protects? It's the flesh! And where do you think the armor comes from? From our spirits!

No, we can and do do any old sin if we don't maintain the armor!

You seem to have made clear to me that you believe that one can lose one's salvation due to sin.

I would to God I could see ANY diffference other than them going to church sometimes. Occasionally they will seem more optomistic, say "God things," maybe cuss a little less when they play golf, etc. But they all function in jobs, in family, in social events (movies, shopping, etc.) pretty much like the rest of us. And the sin you talk about them never doing, I'm afraid some will do because, like David, they live an "unguarded" life -- their perceived strength is actually their weakness (Quote: Dr Rogers). So that even you, like Wesley, who says you can be nearly sinless, ignore sins in yourself that could be your very own undoing according to your own standards!

Jesus said, "I came not to judge" and I think it best not to "tinker" on the sin side of the equation regarding who is saved and who not. That really is not for us to know and I perceive it is mainly pride if we think we do know.

skypair

BBob,[/QUOTE]

 

Notice the selfishness of your post.
I don't want to end up in a nursing home.
I pray the Lord will take me home before that might.
I do not want any artificial means to keep me alive
Just let ME die.
I will be going...

WOW!! I, I, I, I. That is a very selfish post Bob.

What it does, it gives a slap in the face to all those who daily live victorious Christian lives and yet are confined to wheel-chairs, are bed-ridden, have serious limitations, etc.
In essence, like the Pharisees standing near the publican you pray thus with yourself: "I don't want to be like that man." What a terrible prayer; a terrible attitude to have. Have you told the Lord this?
Take this example from history.

Such a list could be produced with countless of saints that have been bedridden or in conditions that you have described.
But you have described this as a punishment from God.
Fanny Crosby was blind almost all her life and was one of the greatest blessings to the world by her hymn writing.
Your post disparages people like her.

No, you don't want to end up in a nursing home. As soon as you come to the age when you lose your independence and have to come to be dependent on others, you say: "That's it Lord, take me home. I am finished down here."
What if all the people that had disabilities and must depend on others had that attitude?? Amazing! Pitiful!

 

No, DHK did not merely state an opinion, he stated suicide of which came fro la la land, not my post or scripture.

I am just the same as Apostle Paul, I do have a desire to be with Christ, for to be with him is far better. Does that mean I want to die, no it does not, but if I do it is gain. Which destroys your theology of dying in Christ is a punishment, or at least DHK's and you keep saying you agree with him.

BBob,

 

You don't sound like you are very mature at all DHK. Everyone I have ever knew, have said the same as I said. If it is "I" , then let it be "I", I do not want to be in a nursing home and put all that suffering on my family. You do or say as you wish, but do not tell me how to live my life.

Every time you pray, do you say "I", well I suspect you do and oh how selfish your are. jeeesh

I saw a time in my last heart surgery, that I prayed to die. When my body will not function any longer, and others have to feed me, wipe me, bath me, oh yes Lord I want to die.

You fail to see the real meaning in the scripture "to did in Christ is gain".

BBob,

 

2 Corinthians 12:9-10 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

There is no hint of Paul "desiring to be with the Lord" in this passage. You have taken Scripture out of context. Whether in death or in life, Paul desired to glorify Christ. If that included persecution, sickenss, infirmities, weaknesses, then so be it. He was ready. He was ready for the really tough times ahead. He was ready to be stoned and left for dead. And he was. He wasn't a cry-baby, whining to the Lord, "Take me home," every time he suffered or things got tough. Persecution and trials are part and parcel of the Christian life.

"Yea all who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (not go home and be with the Lord).

 

BBob,

"Lay aside the weight that doth so easily beset" and let's go on the the point of the thread, bro. Where are we with Wesley and sanctification? Does salvation require 'entire sanctification'/works?

skypair

 

You make a good case for Jack Kevorkian. (Don’t want to put burden’s on others; just stick me with that needle Jack.)

Not entirely. You spoke of not wanting to be in a nursing home. Those in nursing homes are not in commas. Why don’t you take up a ministry of visiting those in nursing homes. It would do you some good.

We don’t always get what we want in life. Paul said:

Philippians 4:11-12 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.


You don’t agree with Paul, nor do you know how to be like him: “to be content in whatever state you find yourself.” If the Lord puts you into a nursing home then accept it as the will of God. If he puts you in the midst of Afghanistan to live out the rest of your life trying to reach out to the Taliban and Al-Qaeda then obey Him and accept it as God’s will. Be content wherever you are, and wherever God puts you, no matter what the conditions may be. We don’t get to dictate to God the conditions near the end of our life just because “we are older than God.” God still has superiority.

You know nothing of my physical conditions which I will not disclose. But I will inform you that by today’s standards, Paul was disabled. Don’t complain and use your disability as an excuse and escape mechanism for not living a joyous and victorious Christian life.

 

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

I think idolatry is the worse sin we can do. Above murder, Adultry and all the others (With the exception of blaspheme the Holy Ghost).
Maybe our definitions differ. My definition of idolatry is anything you do and not have the Lord first. In other words, getting up in the morning and hurrying to your job to meet a deadline and getting it done and then realizing you didn't pray and thank God that morning first.
Knowing you should go visit but stying home to relax and watch TV.
A Wednesday night service (Or any service) is being held and your child has an event at school and you choose to go to the event to watch your child instead of going to the service.
Being so hungry you eat your food and forget to thank God for it first.
I could keep going on and on and on and on......

Many hold to the idea that you have to bow to an image before it is idolatry, I disagree. But that is just me and my opinion. It may not count for much.

Maybe I am the only one that is guilty of this, but guilty I am. I have no desire to do it, I pray that God strengthens me so I never get so into something that I leave God out of it. We can dance and tip toe all around it if we want, but it is a form of idolatry. If there is a sin unto death, that would be the one. After all, if we look at the commandments, what is the first one?

Now its always easy for us to make an excuse. "I don't feel like it" or "I'm tired". If that is the case, then you worship yourself as an idol because you are putting your wants before God's.
It's simple. We can't do it!!! Now I could alter my definitions to fit my lifestyle and according to my standards pass all the time. I could not only never commit this "Sin unto death", but I could live a sinless life, according to my altered standards.

No I don't. It would be better for me to die and go home. But it would be better for my family, loved ones and the lost sinners that I preach to if I stay. Only because it is pleasing to the Lord to use me in any way He sees fit to.

 

You never took scripture out of context this time, you just did not have the right scripture. I busted your bubble and you are fishing for words to say.

Phil 1:
21] For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
[22] But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
[23] For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
[24] Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

BBob,

 

I'll take him over GW Bush who revealed his loack of understanding publically of what i9t means to be a Christian.

 

It is a desire of every Christian to be perfect in the flesh in this life and we strive to do so. It is impossible for us to reach that "entire" sanctification, because of a corruptable flesh, that will not receive change to perfection until the resurrection.

Romans 8:

20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
[21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

BBob,

 

I got news for you DHK; you couldn't show me a light to see by, I would be so far ahead of you. I would like to see you keep up with me.

You make up words, I busted your bubble of dying in Christ was a punishment, and you can't take it. So you try to come up with things on your own, that I did not even say. Most of your post is completely false.

BBob,

 

I agree with you, putting anything before the Lord is idolatry

BBob,

 

I find it odd how you ignore verse 24, thus taking the rest of the Scripture out of its context.
I will give you an example. It is like a child saying (Vs.23), I want (desire to have) candy. But her parent (father) says: "No," it is not necessary for you.

In Verse 24 Paul was giving God's answer to him, and explaining that to the Philippians. The Lord was saying that in spite of Paul's desires it was more needful for him to remain in the flesh, on the earth, to be able to minister unto them. Paul was useful. His time was not up yet. God was not finished with him yet. Yes Paul had a desire to be with the Lord; don't we all. Let not that be an escape mechanism to leave this world. Paul gladly accepted the Word from the Lord that his duty was to remain and serve the Lord right up until the time that he was to be with Him--and that time did not come until he was beheaded at Rome!! No nursing home for Paul!

 

The point was "to die in Christ is gain" to put to rest your claim, to die in Christ was a punishment of a "sin unto death", of which you called physical.
I just pointed out that Paul did not consider it a punishment to die. He considered it gain.

So, it ripped apart your theology of "a sin unto death" for a Christian was punishment to that Christian. When in fact according to Paul it is gain.

Verse 24 changes nothing at all.

BBob,