Salvation by any other name.....

[TCassidy]

You cannot just rely on believing that there is a God and that that God is Jehovah.

The OT saints believed in Jesus the Christ. In Hebrew that is "Jehovah is Salvation" the "Messiah." What you are saying is that if a person does not understand English (Jesus is the English translation of the Hebrew "Jehovah is Salvation) they can't be saved! That is idiotic!

Repentance of sin and belief that Jesus is the only way of Salvation.

Yes, that Jesus (translation "Jehovah is Salvation") is how the OT saints, and us too, get to heaven.

Not belief in somebody else

Nobody has made such a claim.

the specific finished work of Jesus.

Yes, as seen in Genesis 3:15.

Knowing God does not change and does not show favoritism the OT saints have to had believed on Jesus,

They did. "Jesus" = "Jehovah is Salvation."

this could only occur in Paradise

Not if "Paradise" is your invention of a Protestant Purgatory. Paradise means Heaven. Simple to understand. I have given you all three verses in the NT that prove that but you reject them.

 

[loDebar]

You are conditioning salvation on knowledge and not grace. How about infants who die never hearing the gospel we hear today?

From another post we discussed them going to Heaven , but this is based mainly upon one statement from David.

It is one of my favorite subjects. (I believe differently than most here in this regard and would prefer to discuss this separately)

We have been talking about those that were righteously and died without a specific knowledge of Jesus

 

[TCassidy]

without Jesus they are not saved

Yes, without "Jehovah is Salvation" (Greek: Ἰησοῦς - English: Jesus) they could not be saved. And all the OT prophets preached Jesus. I showed you that from the bible but you refuse to believe it. If you refuse the believe the bible there is really nothing more I can say. We have no common ground to continue the discussion.

 

[Yeshua1]

The OT saints believed in Jesus the Christ. In Hebrew that is "Jehovah is Salvation" the "Messiah." What you are saying is that if a person does not understand English (Jesus is the English translation of the Hebrew "Jehovah is Salvation) they can't be saved! That is idiotic!

Yes, that Jesus (translation "Jehovah is Salvation") is how the OT saints, and us too, get to heaven.

Nobody has made such a claim.

Yes, as seen in Genesis 3:15.

They did. "Jesus" = "Jehovah is Salvation."

Not if "Paradise" is your invention of a Protestant Purgatory. Paradise means Heaven. Simple to understand. I have given you all three verses in the NT that prove that but you reject them.

The OT saints believed in a coming redeemer, the promised Messiah, they did not need to know His name to get saved!

 

[Revmitchell]

Regeneration precedes faith. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. So in this sense, any of the faithful were born again.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

 

[loDebar]

The OT saints believed in Jesus the Christ. In Hebrew that is "Jehovah is Salvation" the "Messiah." What you are saying is that if a person does not understand English (Jesus is the English translation of the Hebrew "Jehovah is Salvation) they can't be saved! That is idiotic!

Yes, that Jesus (translation "Jehovah is Salvation") is how the OT saints, and us too, get to heaven.

Nobody has made such a claim.

Yes, as seen in Genesis 3:15.

They did. "Jesus" = "Jehovah is Salvation."

Not if "Paradise" is your invention of a Protestant Purgatory. Paradise means Heaven. Simple to understand. I have given you all three verses in the NT that prove that but you reject them.

my goodness, not English, not believing in God, not believing that God is salvation but only belief in nane of Jesus will get you to heaven.

If you are not to invent another way to Heaven and decide God does have favorites, then these OT saints have to hear about JESUS. When did this happen in their lifetime? It didn't , But it had to happen sometimr, You have been given the answer,

 

[loDebar]

The OT saints believed in a coming redeemer, the promised Messiah, they did not need to know His name to get saved!

yes they did, belief in anyone else would not be sufficient.

 

[Yeshua1]

yes they did, belief in anyone else would not be sufficient.

They trusted and believed That God would send the Messiah....

 

[Yeshua1]

my goodness, not English, not believing in God, not believing that God is salvation but only belief in nane of Jesus will get you to heaven.

If you are not to invent another way to Heaven and decide God does have favorites, then these OT saints have to hear about JESUS. When did this happen in their lifetime? It didn't , But it had to happen sometimr, You have been given the answer,

Abraham believed that God would send the lamb of God, but did he know his real name ?

 

[loDebar]

They trusted and believed That God would send the Messiah....

not sufficient, . This is the belief of a coming Messiah that is counted for righteousness, We are saved by belief in Jesus

 

[loDebar]

Abraham believed that God would send the lamb of God, but did he know his real name ?

not sufficient, . This is the belief of a coming Messiah that is counted for righteousness, We are saved by belief in Jesus

 

[loDebar]

Yes, without "Jehovah is Salvation" (Greek: Ἰησοῦς - English: Jesus) they could not be saved. And all the OT prophets preached Jesus. I showed you that from the bible but you refuse to believe it. If you refuse the believe the bible there is really nothing more I can say. We have no common ground to continue the discussion.

They preached Messiah,

 

[Yeshua1]

not sufficient, . This is the belief of a coming Messiah that is counted for righteousness, We are saved by belief in Jesus

That was sufficient to save under the Old Covenant . as the very name of Jesus was not given to Him until his birth, and Then that was the only name under heaven by which we must get saved by!

 

[loDebar]

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(6) For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead.--This version is misleading, and seems indeed to be one of those rare cases where the original has been expanded by the translators for doctrinal ends. The Greek is simply, For for this end was the gospel preached to the dead also, or, still more literally, to dead men also. No one with an un-preoccupied mind could doubt, taking this clause by itself, that the persons to whom this preaching was made were dead at the time of being preached to. If this is the case, then, pretty obviously, St. Peter is carrying us back to his teaching of 1Peter 3:19, and is explaining further the purpose of Christ's descent into hell.

 

[loDebar]

Paradise Relocated
by Wayne D. Turner
From BibleTrack
Copyright 2004-2008

Consider these verses with regard to the location of Hell (hades) and Paradise then and now.

• In Matthew 12:40 Jesus said he would spend three days AND three nights in the heart of the earth.
• In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus identifies a place called "Abraham's bosom" within eyesight of a place of torment called "hell" separated by a "great gulf."
• In Luke 23:43 Jesus tells the thief that got saved that today he would join him in "paradise," not Heaven.
• In I Peter 3:19 Peter says that Jesus preached to the "spirits in prison."
• In Ephesians 4:8-10 Paul says that Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth after his crucifixion and led "captivity captive" i.e. "a band of captives" when he ascended.
• In John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary not to touch him because he has not yet ascended to "my Father."
• In Matthew 27:52-54 we see that after the resurrection of Jesus, "many" of the resurrected saints wandered into Jerusalem and appeared to many.

So, let's compile the incidents on this issue based upon these passages. Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 that he would be in the "heart of the earth" for three days and three nights. He told the dying man next to him on the cross that he would join him there "this day." Jesus identified such a place (paradise) in Luke 16:19-31 within eyesight of hades. Peter tells us in I Peter 3:19 that Jesus preached to these captives ("spirits in prison"). When Jesus appeared to Mary in John 20, Jesus notified her in verse 17 that he had resurrected, but not yet ascended to Heaven. Paul said that Jesus led a band of captives when he descended (to receive them) and ascended in Ephesians 4:8-10. While leading this "band of captives" from "paradise" to Heaven, Jesus visited with Mary on earth prior to delivering these saints to their final destination. Some of these captives apparently had already taken an excursion into Jerusalem while Jesus was talking to Mary, according to Matthew 27:52-54.

If all of this seems to fit to you, then consider the following:

• Paradise in the center of the earth has been evacuated.
• Only the place of torments (Hell, hades) remains there. Hell will be cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:14.
• Those saints who died prior to the resurrection are now in Heaven, not paradise.
• The rapture of I Thessalonians 4:15-18 and I Corinthians 15:51-53 will include only those in Christ since the resurrection.

Why was it necessary for the Old Testament saints to be held in "paradise" prior to the resurrection of Jesus?

The answer is found in Hebrews 11:39-40:

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Notice the condition of the Believer since the sacrifice of the cross:

• I Corinthians 2:6, "Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect:"
• Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
• II Tim. 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

In other words, our faith makes us "perfect" (Greek: telios - complete) in Christ Jesus, but that was not possible until the atoning sacrifice had been made on the cross. The Old Testament saints were made "perfect," but not until after the sacrifice that makes Believers today "perfect" also. Perfect here is used in the context of righteousness. Believers are made "righteous" or "perfect" in Christ as a result of his sacrificial death. That is why Hebrews 11:40 says that they (Old Testament saints) could not be made perfect "without us" or apart from us. At the point of the resurrection, all Believers (Old and New Testament) were perfected (regarded as righteous before God) through the sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross. In other words, our spiritual relationship with God is perfect

 

[loDebar]

Common knowledge where I am from. Maybe it needs to be taught in other areas.

 

[loDebar]

That was sufficient to save under the Old Covenant . as the very name of Jesus was not given to Him until his birth, and Then that was the only name under heaven by which we must get saved by!

It did not saved but was accounted for righteousness for them , all in Hebrews 11, Salvation is of Jesus

Act 4:12

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[Yeshua1]

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(6) For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead.--This version is misleading, and seems indeed to be one of those rare cases where the original has been expanded by the translators for doctrinal ends. The Greek is simply, For for this end was the gospel preached to the dead also, or, still more literally, to dead men also. No one with an un-preoccupied mind could doubt, taking this clause by itself, that the persons to whom this preaching was made were dead at the time of being preached to. If this is the case, then, pretty obviously, St. Peter is carrying us back to his teaching of 1Peter 3:19, and is explaining further the purpose of Christ's descent into hell.

There was no second chance being offered to them though....

 

[Yeshua1]

It did not saved but was accounted for righteousness for them , all in Hebrews 11, Salvation is of Jesus

Act 4:12

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Were those in the OT saved?

 

[TCassidy]

They preached Messiah,

And Who is Messiah? Who is the Anointed One? Who is the Christ?