Salvation/election in an illustration

[Amy.G]

You are correct in saying "it seems that anyone who is willing to look upon (believe in) Christ will be saved, just as those who were willing to look upon the serpent in the desert."

But the Bible's answer is this; John 3: 19. "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

This is in context saying; "one must be born again of God before they can see or enter into the Kingdom of God."

I'm not sure what you're saying.

Are you saying that one cannot look upon Christ until He has been born again? He has to be saved before He can be saved?

 

[reformedbeliever]

I'm not sure what you're saying.

Are you saying that one cannot look upon Christ until He has been born again? He has to be saved before He can be saved?

I'm saying that one can not look upon Christ until the Holy Spirit has opened his eyes to see. Men loved darkness rather than the light. Men would rather be in the dark, blind, than to come to Christ for salvation. They must be born again. Intellectual knowledge won't do it. Wanting salvation along with every other emotional desire or material desire will not do it. The rich young ruler wanted salvation along with all the other possessions he had. He was not born again of God. This is a sovereign act of God, Amy. Just as Jesus said, you can not see or enter into the kingdom of God without being born again. Being born again is a sovereign act of God, not an exercise of the will of man. Have you changed your theological views again? Just wondering.

 

[Revmitchell]

So much of what gets debated on this issue are but periphial issues. Getting down to the crux of the differences between us is v. 13 of John Ch 1.

With regards to just what was intended by John in his use of the phrase "nor of the will of man" it can reasonably be interpreted two ways with only one being correct.

1. Man cannot and does not have any part in a conscience decision in the salvation provided by Christ.

2. Regardless of any conscience decision made by man toward the salvation provided him by Christ the credit can only go to Christ because of His authority, power, and righteousness.

 

[reformedbeliever]

So much of what gets debated on this issue are but periphial issues. Getting down to the crux of the differences between us is v. 13 of John Ch 1.

With regards to just what was intended by John in his use of the phrase "nor of the will of man" it can reasonably be interpreted two ways with only one being correct.

1. Man cannot and does not have any part in a conscience decision in the salvation provided by Christ.

2. Regardless of any conscience decision made by man toward the salvation provided him by Christ the credit can only go to Christ because of His authority, power, and righteousness.

This would be wrong. We do have to make a decision. When one is born again of God, they must and will choose in the affirmative. "All that the Father gives me will come..."

 

[Amy.G]

I'm saying that one can not look upon Christ until the Holy Spirit has opened his eyes to see. Men loved darkness rather than the light. Men would rather be in the dark, blind, than to come to Christ for salvation. They must be born again. Intellectual knowledge won't do it. Wanting salvation along with every other emotional desire or material desire will not do it. The rich young ruler wanted salvation along with all the other possessions he had. He was not born again of God. This is a sovereign act of God, Amy. Just as Jesus said, you can not see or enter into the kingdom of God without being born again. Being born again is a sovereign act of God, not an exercise of the will of man. Have you changed your theological views again? Just wondering.

I told you I was a schizo. :laugh:

I have had lot's of problems making Calvinism make sense. Sorry. I know you're disappointed in me. :saint:

Let me ask this. When the Israelites looked upon the serpent, was it because their eyes had been opened by God and they were chosen to be saved from death?

Christ Himself compared His being lifted up on a pole to that of the serpent on the pole in the desert.

 

[webdog]

This would be wrong. We do have to make a decision. When one is born again of God, they must and will choose in the affirmative. "All that the Father gives me will come..."

The above bolded is forced salvation. Salvation is not forced, else it would not be a gift.

 

[Amy.G]

God is sovereign.

You are not saved until God says you are regardless of what you think, say or do.

 

[webdog]

I'm saying that one can not look upon Christ until the Holy Spirit has opened his eyes to see. Men loved darkness rather than the light.

If I were to say I loved mint chocolate chip ice cream rather than vanilla...is it because I have never tasted vanilla, or because I tasted both and preferred one over the other?

 

[webdog]

God is sovereign.

You are not saved until God says you are regardless of what you think, say or do.

Who is this directed to? If I failed to have faith in Christ I would still be saved? I'm not following...

 

[reformedbeliever]

When the Israelites looked upon the serpent, was it because their eyes had been opened by God and they were chosen to be saved from death?

Yes.

Now answer this. If God in His perfect knowledge knew who would look upon the serpent, could they have chosen to not look? If God also knew who would not look upon the serpet, could they have chosen to look? Not if God's knowledge is perfect. When we come to the point of decision, we make choices which are dependent upon circumstances that are a part of the decision. Who puts those circumstances in place? Could God do that? Could that be a part of God's providence? God's providence is not always God providing all the good things in a person's life. God may have decided to create one vessel unto honor and one unto dishonor. Don't allow your reasoning to get in the way of God's revealed Word Amy. I'm sure you will not do that, in reading most all of your replies. You seem to be really solid. I don't want you to be a Calvinist, I'd rather you be someone who holds to the full counsel of God.... and I'm sure you are. I'm not disapointed in you at all.

 

[webdog]

Now answer this. If God in His perfect knowledge knew who would look upon the serpent, could they have chosen to not look? If God also knew who would not look upon the serpet, could they have chosen to look? Not if God's knowledge is perfect.

Yes, yes and yes. Knowledge isn't deterministic in nature.

 

[reformedbeliever]

The above bolded is forced salvation. Salvation is not forced, else it would not be a gift.

Oh yes, a rescue is forced. I've done cpr on many a clinically dead persons, and all of them who lived would not have lived had I not forced myself upon them.

 

[webdog]

Oh yes, a rescue is forced. I've done cpr on many a clinically dead persons, and all of them who lived would not have lived had I not forced myself upon them.

OK, if the person is made "alive" prior to faith...the need for faith is what exactly? If one passes from death to life, they are saved.

Hey, I used your wording (must, will)

 

[reformedbeliever]

Yes, yes and yes. Knowledge isn't deterministic in nature.

It is if you are God.

 

[webdog]

It is if you are God.

God forknows all sin, too. He has determined that too?

 

[reformedbeliever]

OK, if the person is made "alive" prior to faith...the need for faith is what exactly? If one passes from death to life, they are saved.

Hey, I used your wording (must, will)

Think about it Web. They are made alive by Faith. This is the gift of God.

 

[reformedbeliever]

God forknows all sin, too. He has determined that too?

In a way that does not make Him the author of sin. He determined what Joseph's brothers would do.

 

[webdog]

Think about it Web. They are made alive by Faith. This is the gift of God.

I agree regeneration occurs with faith. You seem to be arguing regeneration preceding faith.

 

[webdog]

In a way that does not make Him the author of sin.

Now this doesn't make much sense. Above you alluded to foreknowledge = determining. You can't have it one way in regards to salvation and another in regards to sin.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Now this doesn't make much sense. Above you alluded to foreknowledge = determining. You can't have it one way in regards to salvation and another in regards to sin.

It makes no difference in which way I have it....... the difference is what scripture says.