Salvation/election in an illustration

I agree. And no where ins scripture does it ever indicate such.

 

:laugh:

It's just my own personal definition of the sovereignty of God.

No, you can't be saved apart from faith. I'm just saying that it's God who has the final say. It seems there's always a dispute over God's vs. man's sovereignty.

Ok. Maybe I should have just

I think I'm juggling too many threads at once. :laugh:

 

If faith is a gift from God, what difference does the order make? If regeneration is faith..... what difference?

 

...and in no way does it state God determins man's salvation apart from choice in the same way it doesn't state man's sin is determined by God apart from choice. We are all free to do both else God's character of justice if flawed, and that is not the case.

 

It appears to be quite a large issue in the reformed arena.

 

Since faith is NOT a gift from God, at least the way you are using it. (all men are created with the reasoning and ability to have faith. All men have faith in something, all day, every day)

 

This post got overlooked...

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1217373&postcount=28

 

We are talking about saving faith Web... and it is a gift of God.

 

It really does not matter to me what kind of ice cream you like web........... besides, I'm trying to avoid ice cream....... especially the strawberry cheeze cake variety of Braums. :laugh:

 

Scripture that there is such a thing, and that it is a different means of faith than what we already have.

I'll run with this for a minute, though. If man receives no credit and has no responsibility for "saving faith", the converse is also true, man has no responsibility for NOT having "saving faith" in Christ, and John 3:18 is false.

 

:laugh: I am too (summers coming up and I have no shorts that fit)

I'm referring to loving something rather than the other (darkness rather than light). You state this happens because God doesn't give light to all (Scripture does state the opposite, but anyway...) and that is why man loves darkness rather than the light.

 

Don't allow logic to get in the way of all scripture web. Is it logical that God meant for the evil to happen to Joseph, but God is not the source of sin of Joseph's brothers?

 

God knowing is not the same as God removing our choices. He can know what we'll do in a certain situation while still allowing us to make the choice.
I believe in the total sovereignty of God and the free will of man. How the two come together, only God knows. We are responsible because God has given us choices.

Thank you for the kind words.

:1_grouphug:

 

I never said God does not give light to all........ even though I may believe that...
I am saying God does not rescue all. Jesus did not heal everyone He came in contact with. Salvation is a rescue.

 

You are welcome, and I agree with everything you said.

 

Oh, I'm only using the logic of what justice entails, nothing more...nothing less. If man is not responsible whatsoever for faith, they must, judicially speaking, not be responsible for non-faith. That's what justice is.

 

I have not read through the other posts yet but let me suggest a scripture to you.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

People seem to want to view God from their earthly point of view and pose questions that only God can answer.

By the way, who put the blindfold on, if it makes a difference?

 

First, you have to "be" a child of God for this analogy.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:



Once a child of God, He will not let the enemy snatch you out of His hand. (or fall in the pit, or get speared by the devil.)

 

Just a quick queston Amy. When did they become a child of God? Were they already His before they were conceived? Jhn 1:12 does not say when they became a child of God. The text simply says but as many as received Him, correct?
We become too dependent upon time or (as a reformed person myself) order of events, because we are so dependent upon time. Try to look at this without an order or time. In His perfect knowledge, God knows exactly who will receive Him and who will not. All those whom God knows will receive Him will, and those whom He knows will not receive Him will not. It is really quite that simple.
All who receive Him or do not receive Him make a choice and are held responsible for those choices. These seemingly opposing truths (antinomy) are taught in the Bible, therefore we should teach them also. Denying one is as bad as taking one to the extreeme, which would be going further than scripture does.

 

Who said man is not responsible for faith? If you do not have faith in the finished work of our Savior, God will hold you responsible.