Salvation/election in an illustration

[Revmitchell]

I agree regeneration occurs with faith. You seem to be arguing regeneration preceding faith.

I agree. And no where ins scripture does it ever indicate such.

 

[Amy.G]

Who is this directed to? If I failed to have faith in Christ I would still be saved? I'm not following...

:laugh:

It's just my own personal definition of the sovereignty of God.

No, you can't be saved apart from faith. I'm just saying that it's God who has the final say. It seems there's always a dispute over God's vs. man's sovereignty.

Ok. Maybe I should have just

I think I'm juggling too many threads at once. :laugh:

 

[reformedbeliever]

I agree regeneration occurs with faith. You seem to be arguing regeneration preceding faith.

If faith is a gift from God, what difference does the order make? If regeneration is faith..... what difference?

 

[webdog]

It makes no difference in which way I have it....... the difference is what scripture says.

...and in no way does it state God determins man's salvation apart from choice in the same way it doesn't state man's sin is determined by God apart from choice. We are all free to do both else God's character of justice if flawed, and that is not the case.

 

[Revmitchell]

If faith is a gift from God, what difference does the order make? If regeneration is faith..... what difference?

It appears to be quite a large issue in the reformed arena.

 

[webdog]

If faith is a gift from God, what difference does the order make? If regeneration is faith..... what difference?

Since faith is NOT a gift from God, at least the way you are using it. (all men are created with the reasoning and ability to have faith. All men have faith in something, all day, every day)

 

[webdog]

This post got overlooked...

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1217373&postcount=28

 

[reformedbeliever]

Since faith is NOT a gift from God, at least the way you are using it. (all men are created with the reasoning and ability to have faith. All men have faith in something, all day, every day)

We are talking about saving faith Web... and it is a gift of God.

 

[reformedbeliever]

This post got overlooked...

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1217373&postcount=28

It really does not matter to me what kind of ice cream you like web........... besides, I'm trying to avoid ice cream....... especially the strawberry cheeze cake variety of Braums. :laugh:

 

[webdog]

We are talking about saving faith Web... and it is a gift of God.

Scripture that there is such a thing, and that it is a different means of faith than what we already have.

I'll run with this for a minute, though. If man receives no credit and has no responsibility for "saving faith", the converse is also true, man has no responsibility for NOT having "saving faith" in Christ, and John 3:18 is false.

 

[webdog]

It really does not matter to me what kind of ice cream you like web........... besides, I'm trying to avoid ice cream....... especially the strawberry cheeze cake variety of Braums. :laugh:

:laugh: I am too (summers coming up and I have no shorts that fit)

I'm referring to loving something rather than the other (darkness rather than light). You state this happens because God doesn't give light to all (Scripture does state the opposite, but anyway...) and that is why man loves darkness rather than the light.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Scripture that there is such a thing, and that it is a different means of faith than what we already have.

I'll run with this for a minute, though. If man receives no credit and has no responsibility for "saving faith", the converse is also true, man has no responsibility for NOT having faith in Christ, and John 3:18 is false.

Don't allow logic to get in the way of all scripture web. Is it logical that God meant for the evil to happen to Joseph, but God is not the source of sin of Joseph's brothers?

 

[Amy.G]

Yes.

Now answer this. If God in His perfect knowledge knew who would look upon the serpent, could they have chosen to not look? If God also knew who would not look upon the serpet, could they have chosen to look? Not if God's knowledge is perfect. When we come to the point of decision, we make choices which are dependent upon circumstances that are a part of the decision. Who puts those circumstances in place? Could God do that? Could that be a part of God's providence? God's providence is not always God providing all the good things in a person's life. God may have decided to create one vessel unto honor and one unto dishonor. Don't allow your reasoning to get in the way of God's revealed Word Amy. I'm sure you will not do that, in reading most all of your replies. You seem to be really solid. I don't want you to be a Calvinist, I'd rather you be someone who holds to the full counsel of God.... and I'm sure you are. I'm not disapointed in you at all.

God knowing is not the same as God removing our choices. He can know what we'll do in a certain situation while still allowing us to make the choice.
I believe in the total sovereignty of God and the free will of man. How the two come together, only God knows. We are responsible because God has given us choices.

Thank you for the kind words.

:1_grouphug:

 

[reformedbeliever]

:laugh: I am too (summers coming up and I have no shorts that fit)

I'm referring to loving something rather than the other (darkness rather than light). You state this happens because God doesn't give light to all (Scripture does state the opposite, but anyway...) and that is why man loves darkness rather than the light.

I never said God does not give light to all........ even though I may believe that...
I am saying God does not rescue all. Jesus did not heal everyone He came in contact with. Salvation is a rescue.

 

[reformedbeliever]

God knowing is not the same as God removing our choices. He can know what we'll do in a certain situation while still allowing us to make the choice.
I believe in the total sovereignty of God and the free will of man. How the two come together, only God knows. We are responsible because God has given us choices.

Thank you for the kind words.

:1_grouphug:

You are welcome, and I agree with everything you said.

 

[webdog]

Don't allow logic to get in the way of all scripture web. Is it logical that God meant for the evil to happen to Joseph, but God is not the source of sin of Joseph's brothers?

Oh, I'm only using the logic of what justice entails, nothing more...nothing less. If man is not responsible whatsoever for faith, they must, judicially speaking, not be responsible for non-faith. That's what justice is.

 

[saved and sure]

Well I guess i posted at the wrong time because noone answered my hypothetical question in another thread. So here it is again:

If your child was walking blindfolded towards a deep pit with spears in the ground pointing upwards, would you grab that child, preventing him from death? or, would you just shout a command to avoid the pit and hope he/she hears and listens to you?

Follow up: Which reaction demonstrates a genuine desire for the child to live?

I have not read through the other posts yet but let me suggest a scripture to you.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

People seem to want to view God from their earthly point of view and pose questions that only God can answer.

By the way, who put the blindfold on, if it makes a difference?

 

[Amy.G]

First, you have to "be" a child of God for this analogy.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:



Once a child of God, He will not let the enemy snatch you out of His hand. (or fall in the pit, or get speared by the devil.)

 

[reformedbeliever]

First, you have to "be" a child of God for this analogy.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:



Once a child of God, He will not let the enemy snatch you out of His hand. (or fall in the pit, or get speared by the devil.)

Just a quick queston Amy. When did they become a child of God? Were they already His before they were conceived? Jhn 1:12 does not say when they became a child of God. The text simply says but as many as received Him, correct?
We become too dependent upon time or (as a reformed person myself) order of events, because we are so dependent upon time. Try to look at this without an order or time. In His perfect knowledge, God knows exactly who will receive Him and who will not. All those whom God knows will receive Him will, and those whom He knows will not receive Him will not. It is really quite that simple.
All who receive Him or do not receive Him make a choice and are held responsible for those choices. These seemingly opposing truths (antinomy) are taught in the Bible, therefore we should teach them also. Denying one is as bad as taking one to the extreeme, which would be going further than scripture does.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Oh, I'm only using the logic of what justice entails, nothing more...nothing less. If man is not responsible whatsoever for faith, they must, judicially speaking, not be responsible for non-faith. That's what justice is.

Who said man is not responsible for faith? If you do not have faith in the finished work of our Savior, God will hold you responsible.