Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I forgot you are so blind that you can't read scripture.
Or do you not understand the word ANYONE?
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Salvation in Catholic and Baptist Theology
- Thread starter JarJo
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I forgot you are so blind that you can't read scripture.
Jesus is speaking about spiritual things, to spiritual people. Jesus is speaking to the 'brothers.' We are brothers and sisters in Christ! We are not to call our BROTHERS 'father'!
Now, tell me how you, as a Catholic obey Jesus in not calling anyone 'father.' I will go first. I do not call my Christian Brother 'father.' I do not call any Christian Brother 'father,' no matter how knowledgeable I think he is. That is how I obey Jesus.
Your turn.
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
Thinkingstuff,
Is God your biological Father? Tell me, is God your earthly Father? Since you do not understand we are not supposed to call our Christian Brothers ‘father,’ then you must think that God is your biological father.
Please do not forget to answer the question above. How do you obey Jesus in not calling anyone 'father'?
Thinkingstuff,
Is God your biological Father? Tell me, is God your earthly Father? Since you do not understand we are not supposed to call our Christian Brothers ‘father,’ then you must think that God is your biological father.
Please do not forget to answer the question above. How do you obey Jesus in not calling anyone 'father'?
The "new man" or as the scriptures puts it, the "new creation" is eternal, he cannot ever die again (this is spiritual of course). So you will need to reevaluate your perceived "problem". Jesus said those who believe on Him HAVE crossed over from death unto life. There is no flipping and flopping. Once saved, it is eternal life. God Bless!
I was born again at the age of ten (1973) . That was 38 years ago and I have never stopped believing in Jesus Christ. How long have you been born again JarJo? Have you ever stopped believing?
Try this little exercise; Try to stop believing, just for say 5 seconds, tell me what it felt like, what was different in your experience without believing in Jesus Christ.
Biblical Christianity is the ONLY "religion" that declares salvation is ALL of God and ZERO of mankind.
Any religion that declares man must DO something to be saved is "another gospel" and is a false religion. And be it understood, Saying yes to the call of the Father to believe on the Son is not a DO. It is not anything physical, it is spiritual. Water baptism is physical, communion is physical, going to church is physical, etc, etc.
Here's how you determine if something is a "DO" (work) or Not, Ask the question; Is the "DO" a physical (work) or a spiritual (faith) ? Any "DO" that takes physical action cannot save.
This is "Faith Alone" that saves. Faith alone in Jesus Christ. :wavey:
Any religion that declares man must DO something to be saved is "another gospel" and is a false religion. And be it understood, Saying yes to the call of the Father to believe on the Son is not a DO. It is not anything physical, it is spiritual. Water baptism is physical, communion is physical, going to church is physical, etc, etc.
Here's how you determine if something is a "DO" (work) or Not, Ask the question; Is the "DO" a physical (work) or a spiritual (faith) ? Any "DO" that takes physical action cannot save.
This is "Faith Alone" that saves. Faith alone in Jesus Christ. :wavey:
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
The question is not how I obey Jesus not calling anyone father but how you obey Jesus.
Why? Well because I've already said that this passage suggest to me Jesus is using Hyperbole to express a point which is not to seek after honor, or try to inflate your ego with titles. However, in your condemnation of the Catholic Church use of the Word Father you have taken the passage literally thus it is encumbant upon you to show how you obey Jesus in this passage. Do you have children that you allow to call you father? Do you call your male parent father? If so then why don't you see that as disobedient to Jesus Christ because he says anyone which includes family members. Thus if you do call someone father but condemn the Catholic Church you are being a hypocrite.
Hi Steaver,
I was born again in the sense we're using it here, at the age of 23 (1994). I still believe that something probably took place in my soul when I was baptized as a baby, but my born again experience was at age 23.
I can't just stop believing. How is that possible? And it would be a horrible sin if it was possible, to betray my Father like that. You must be trying to make a point?
Hi Steaver,
I was born again in the sense we're using it here, at the age of 23 (1994). I still believe that something probably took place in my soul when I was baptized as a baby, but my born again experience was at age 23.
I can't just stop believing. How is that possible? And it would be a horrible sin if it was possible, to betray my Father like that. You must be trying to make a point?
You had made the comment that you could change your mind about believing on Jesus Christ.
Well two things; If you were born again as a baby then you wouldnt have had any choice to begin with.
Secondly, why did you say you could change your mind earlier and now say "How is that possible?"
1. True, if regeneration occurs at baptism as a baby, it is not a result of the baby's choice.
2. I believe that a person can lose faith. I don't think it's possible for someone who believes to just will themselves to stop believing. How do you force yourself to believe something you don't? On the other hand a person could force themselves to publicy deny Christ. I wouldn't do that... but could I, or has God made it impossible for me to do that? I'm not going to try it to find out, since I believe it would be a terrible thing to do.
You ADMIT here that you do NOT obey Jesus in not calling anyone ‘father.’ You mock God. Your reason for sinning against God is to say Jesus was speaking in a hyperbole. Hyperbole means to exaggerate, and to make an overstatement. You sin against God claiming His command was only an exaggeration!
I obey Jesus in not calling a fellow Christian Brother in Christ ‘father.’ You sin by disobedience and mocking God. I hope you repent of these.
WestminsterMan
New Member
Nice dodge. First, you tell call me a blasphemer, and in the next post you state that you did not call me a blasphemer. Now, I'm a blasphemer again. I think you are having problems keeping up with your posts. Perhaps you need a nap.
Who is "we" and by what authority does "we" interpret scripture? Consider this... Everything in the bible is true, but not everything is in the bible.
Well, you brought the subject up - twice. If you don't want it discussed don't post it in the first place. Whatever...
WM
A red herring! No one is disputing that the term "father" has a wide application just like the term "Lord" (adonai/kurios).
It is the direct address "Holy Father" that is the subject of dispute. This is a direct address found only once in scripture and it is Jesus Christ saying it as a direct address to God the Father. That is a very limited and restricted Biblical usage wouldn't you agree?
Your response is like arguing over the word "Lord" when the subject is really about the use of the word "lord" found in combination with "God" or "Lord God" as a direct address which is restricted by the Bible to Almighty God alone.
You could equally argue that the term "Lord" is translated "sir" and used of men but when it is connected with "God" (another term used of men - Psa. 86) it is NEVER used in that combination to anyone but God in the Scriptures.
Now, I have placed this before you a couple of times and you ignore it, change the subject and come back to your argument about ONE term "father" and thus build a straw man and avoid the issue.
Everyone reading our dispute knows you are avoiding the real issue. Why are you avoiding the real issue? Because it is obvious that the Bible restricts the use of the combination of terms "Holy Father" to one being - namely God "the Father" and no other being. Just as the combination of terms "Lord God" is restricted by the Bible to one Being - The One True God.
It does not require too much common sense to realize the direct address "MOST Holy Father" is a blasphemous term when applied to any human being within a Bibical and Christian context.
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this is why I ask this question tagged at the bottom of all my post........
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Pay attention. This response is to Moriah who certianly did.
I already explained that calling someone and elder who is set apart for a specific purpose in the service of God is not wrong. Which is exactly what What Holy Father means. The rest of your argument falls because you're not even interpreting the words correctly.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
You're being ridiculous because I never admited to such a thing. I explained that the passage was spoken in Hyperbolic fashion and wasn't meant literally but to force a specific point that Christians aren't to seek to stroke their egos by looking for complementary titles like the Pharisees did with their love of being called Rabbi or Father. On the Other hand you admit to your disobedience because you read the passage literally indicating that no one should call anyone else father. Yet you call your father, father and your children call you father (that is if you are a male) which means you have disobeyed your interpretation of the scriptures. So by accusing someone else of disobeying based on your litteral interpretation you also accuse yourself.
Again if you read the context of the passage you would see its hyperbole. The context is that the Pharisees though they teach the truth don't live according to their own teachings and are self satisfied with special titles which Jesus uses a literary method of making his point Hyperbole. Just like at other times Jesus use's humor or he uses parables. This is not a command. compare it to his other commands like the great comission or establishment of communion. The question is why do you disobey God when you call your father, father? Or your Grandfather (Great Father) by this title. It seems you are the excuse maker. Because you hold to this literal translation.
No you are wrong because that is not what the passage says. If you take it literally Jesus said do not call ANYONE father. Therefore you sin by limiting it to only Christian brothers. You eisegesis the passage wrongly and then sin. Not a good start for you.
You just make up things about other people. There is no dodge. You do blasphemy against God when you call your Pope “Holy Father.” Now stop saying I denied saying that to you.
The Bible I use is an English version it is in English, so no one is “interpreting scripture” as you say. I only speak of what is in the Bible. The Bible is plain and clear, it just gets confusing when people come up with all kinds of false doctrine.
You are a confused man for sure. Make up your mind that you will only believe what the Bible says, not what a Pope says and your Catechism, only the Bible, then you will not be so confused, and you will be blessed, if you only believe what is in the Bible and put it to practice
Not only so, but Paul illustrates that the governing inclination of man has been eternally changed toward righteousness by regeneration. The issue in a child of God in regard to sin is the power of indwelling sin over the will:
Rom. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
A true child of God sins in spite of his hatred of sin because the governing disposition toward righteousness is POWERLESS to overcome indwelling sin.
"TO WILL IS PRESENT WITH ME; but HOW to PERFORM that which is good I find not"
A true child of God CANNOT WILL to reject Jesus Christ - it is impossible because the governing disposition of the saved man is created in true holiness and righteousness and what is born of God "cannot sin" BECAUSE OF the seed which abides in him. This "seed" is the REGENERATE LIFE or the RENEWED NATURE which controls the governing inclination of man toward holiness and righteousness.
A born again man sins MORE THAN HE WANTS TO and even in sin his inward man HATES what he is doing.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
This is the inward struggle within only a true child of God for only a true child of God has TWO NATURES in combat with each other that produce a WRETCHED internal state of affairs as long as the child of God attempts to deal with sin according to his own power.
The true child of God will eventually have the victory over indwelling sin because Jesus Christ will deliver them eventually:
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
However, there is no full deliverance in this life from the presence of indwelling sin and so "now" this struggle continues:
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Only physical death or transformation delivers the saints from this indwelling power of corruption (1 Cor. 16:52-55).
However, there is NOW partial experiential deliverance from the condemnation and power of indwelling sin by Jesus Christ when the child of God does not walk "after" the flesh but "after" the Spirit of God.
The lost man is "IN the flesh" but the saved man can walk "AFTER" the flesh when he attempts to deal with indwelling sin according to his own will power. Those who are "IN" the flesh cannot please God but those "IN" the Spirit can please God but only through the power of the indwelling Spirit of God. It is through the power of the indwelling Spirit of God they can mortify or put to death the deeds of the flesh.
This internal struggle has nothing to do with success or failure to enter heaven but with success and failure for present victory over indwelling sin. The true experience of a child of God is a mixture of Romans 7:14-25 and Romans 8:9-13.
However, it is impossible for a child of God to ever choose to reject Jesus Christ and turn anti-Christ because the governing inclination within man is controlled by the inward man which is created in true holiness and righteousness. Sin occurs in a child of God ONLY due to a lack of POWER by the inward man to enforce its righteous inclination and so even in the act of sin there is a holy hatred for what the saint is doing by INWARD coercion/power of indwelling sin:
For that which I do [sin] I allow not: for what I would,[righteousness] that do I not; but what I hate, [sin] that do I.
Hence, the only professing Christians that can turn anti-Christ, reject God and apostatize from their profession are lost professors:
1 Jn. 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Not a single one that the Father gives to the Son to save will fail to come to the Son and not a single one that comes to the Son in faith will ever be lost but that individual will be raised unto eternal life:
Jn. 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
However, presently we have a great PROFESSING KINGDOM on earth mixed with "tares" and the true "seed" of the kingdom and apostasy and love for sin are some visible signs of false professors.
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Therefore, you like to go against God's Word to stroke your Pope. You see nothing wrong with that!
God's words are literal. Only people bent on sin say God did not really mean what He says. Is that not how Satan deceived Eve?
You are not just dense and do not know any better, because it is explained to you with great care and patience, so you are deliberately against God. I have explained to you that Jesus was speaking to his disciples. Jesus was not telling us not to call our biological fathers 'father.' Is God your biological Father? You do not love Jesus; if you did, you would obey. Stop calling your Pope "Pope,” the word ‘Pope’ means ‘father.’ If he and you were Christians, then he would be your brother not your father. Catholics not only call their Pope ‘father,’ they call all their priests ‘father.’ Again, they are your brothers!
Again, you choose to give a special title of 'Pope' to your leader! You choose to call your Pope "Holy Father." You continue to mock Jesus by saying Jesus did not really mean what he said!
No one in the Bible called any of the Apostles ‘father,’ or ‘Rabbi,’ or ‘Teacher,' or 'Master,' because Jesus said not to, and I do not either. People in the Bible called biological fathers ‘father,’ and that is what I do. At least do only what the disciples did in the scriptures! That is what I do, yet you call me a sinner! You are a false accuser for sure, among other things. Only Jesus can help you.
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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Moriah I am sorry to say you are showing your lack of knowledge of both scripture and syntax. You call me dense but you are incapable of following a logical flow. How to properly Exegete scriptures in that you have admitted that everything in the scriptures are literal which is obviously not true. You think Pope means something it does not. And thus it is like arguing with a child who thinks they know a thing and shown they do not. Biblicist is far beyond your ability though at times I find him stuborn. I will make a few comments and hope you spend some time studying before making your claims. Else we cannot have a discussion as I will not speak to someone who can't be honest about their own views.
God's word's are literal? Hmmm. Matthew 25 says
NE ON EARTH!!!!! You aren't even consistent with your belief!!!!
This is a horrific statement on your part suggesting homosexual conduct or my fulfilling ones narsisistic ego which is a form of homosexuality but mentally. Shame on you! I do not go against God's word but hold true to its interpretation:Henry's Commentary
It is clear that my exegete holds with Henry as well.
God's word's are literal? Hmmm. Matthew 25 says
So only 5 virgins will go to heaven? Or how about
So God will gather the nations and only allow the animals sheep into his kingdom? Its foolish to believe all of God's words in the bible are literal. IF you do then why don't you believe Jesus wants you to eat his flesh as in John one? You don't even believe what you are saying nor are you honest about you not taking everything literal.
I make the same assessment of you. And to top it off you don't even atempt to be logical or support your statements you just make assertions.
Then you haven't read the verse Literally! Because it says
There is no indicator that Jesus is speaking to them of a spiritual difference in this chapter nor does this verse limit it to just Christian brothers. It says specifically and taken literally ANYONE ON EARTH!!!!! Even Henry disagrees with you and agrees with me. If Jesus wanted to differentiate between spirit and flesh he would have said
But no where in the context of this passage of matthew does he clear it up. Therefore to take it literally means N
NE ON EARTH!!!!! You aren't even consistent with your belief!!!!See how little you understand. All bishops in the 2nd and 3rd centuries were called Papa which is where Pope is derived from. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome. Why don't you stop calling your father father and stop your children from calling you father. Even with your twisted logic if your father or children were christians they need to stop calling you father because you are all brothers and sisters in christ. Only the ones not converted should call you father. But you don't even do that. Therefore your logic is twisted and makes no sense unless to say it does what you want when you want it. Which means you don't let the bible instruct you. You instruct the bible into your belief. That is the kind of Hypocracy Jesus is railing on about in Matthew 23.
You do the same thing by saying Jesus was speaking spiritually only to Christians. That is not what the passage says.
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