Salvation

[Clint Kritzer]

Originally posted by BrianT:
Your question presupposes salvation is a one-time event. I'm not sure that it is. Again, James says Abraham was justified by his works, implying against a "one time" event.

So a person must be born again and again and again...?

Galatians 3:6 is citing Abraham's initial encounter with God.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Clint, you have to take all of scripture.

</font>[/QUOTE]Look at Adam's post up the page here. Can't you see that Paul is citing Genesis 15:6?

James deals *explicitly* with this:

James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

James ties the exact quote you're asking about to not some "initial" faith, but his faith perfected by his works. Simple yes/no question: Is James wrong?

No, James is not wrong. Part of the fruit of the Spirit is faith. Justification continues throughout the Christian's life, daily renewed. Abraham did many things in his life that were recorded, many acts. However, Paul is focussing on that one moment in time when Abraham was first justified. It began with faith. To say otherwise is to nullify the Book of Galatians entirely except as a historical document.

Justification is one's worthiness to receive Grace. It is freely imparted. Once one believes, converts, they are worthy.

You may not dismiss James, but you sure are doing a good job of ignoring him.

No, but I sure am having a hard time getting you to acknowledge Paul.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Was the thief on the cross saved? How did it happen?

Brother Adam basically addressed this above. He said: "Perhaps for the person who knees and accepts Christ and is then promptly hit by a truck and killed, faith, given by God, will be all he needed to display to gain entrance to the kingdom. However, for most of us that isn't how it works. Through faith in God, in Christ, we must have faith in all he said, and must do all he commands. Our burden is to carry our cross daily." </font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps??? So Christ perhaps lied to the thief beside him?

If you are going to center your argument about works salvation (specifically baptism) on James, perhaps you should quote what he had to say about it.

Don't bother looking, he doesn't mention it.

This is likely my last post on the subject for this day. Thank you all for the debate.

 

[Brother Adam]

"Baptism" is not a works salvation. If someone was to offer a goat and a pig and say "Will you save my son now God"? That would be works salvation. Everything done in the Catholic faith is done in faith. They believe in "one baptism for the forgiveness [remission] of sins"

If your going to attack Catholicism, at least attack it for what it is, and not what you think it is. Learn first what the Catholic faith truly stands for, then if they are wrong, put on the full armor of the faith, pick up your sword and plung in head first.

I'm at the point right now of trying to learn what the Church truly stands for. After over 6 months I've discovered I haven't even nicked the surface of an ocean of knowledge.

God Bless,
Bro. Adam

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
So a person must be born again and again and again...?

I don't know. It seems to be more of a process than a repetition.

Look at Adam's post up the page here. Can't you see that Paul is citing Genesis 15:6?

Yes, I realize that. But that's not the whole picture, for James deals with this passage as well. Being "accounted righteousness" doesn't equal "initial moment of salvation", does it? If it does, James is in error to use it in reference to Abraham's works as well.

No, James is not wrong. Part of the fruit of the Spirit is faith. Justification continues throughout the Christian's life, daily renewed.

Ah, "continues"? "renewed"? And what if it's not? Justification, according to Easton's Bible Dictionary is: "the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ, and accounts, accepts, and treats them as righteous in the eye of the law, i.e., as conformed to all its demands. In addition to the pardon (q.v.) of sin, justification declares that all the claims of the law are satisfied in respect of the justified." If this is something that is "renewed", are you saying "a person must be born again and again and again...?"

Abraham did many things in his life that were recorded, many acts. However, Paul is focussing on that one moment in time when Abraham was first justified. It began with faith. To say otherwise is to nullify the Book of Galatians entirely except as a historical document.

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying Galatians doesn't superscede James. Don't make James fit into Galatians, make Galatians and James fit into each other.

Justification is one's worthiness to receive Grace. It is freely imparted. Once one believes, converts, they are worthy.

Then why in the heck is James saying "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"??? Why did James say "justified" and not "shown to be already justified"??? Why, if someone else says "by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" they are condemned as promoting "works-based salvation", but when James says the *exact same thing*, people go to great lengths to explain James meant something other than what he said?

No, but I sure am having a hard time getting you to acknowledge Paul.

I've done more than acknowledge Paul, I've repeatedly affirmed the truths in his writing and explained how they mesh with James.

Perhaps??? So Christ perhaps lied to the thief beside him?

No, the "perhaps" was not about Christ's words being true, but about the reason they were true. Perhaps Christ's words were true for a different reason.

If you are going to center your argument about works salvation (specifically baptism) on James, perhaps you should quote what he had to say about it.

Don't bother looking, he doesn't mention it.

I am not talking about any specific work in particular. I am simply taking James at face value.

This is likely my last post on the subject for this day. Thank you all for the debate.

Good evening.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Dr. Ketchum,

I hope you did not type your post on July 4th. at 10:39 p.m. all in one breath. But, anyway I concur with your message to us that Christ offers Himself to us which we call grace, and we must receive Him if a relationship with God takes place. John 1:12 tell us that only those who receive Christ will be saved and other ceremonies like Eucharist are ministered by the church in remembrance of His death and endless life. This receiving of bread and wine keeps Christ before our eyes so that we continue in His wonderful faith.

Dr. Berrian

 

[Daveth]

Hi all,
I have been reading here - and other places a controversy over basic tenets of faith in regard to salvation, faith and works! There seems to be a division but I really wonder if that is the case at all! I hope that there really is not a division in beliefs or if there is just a misunderstanding in communicating thoughts.
I don’t think anyone is attacking another’s faith, just asking some hard questions.

Some here - I included - look at the church history and wonder why so much trouble. I believe that many are wrestling with what they are told to be true and why there was so must pain from that history. We need to understand what a Church truly stands for, by the way they treated people holistically (past, present and future.)

I struggle with every aspect of this, it is not because I have succeeded, but because I fail to total understand some of it. One thing I know for sure is that faith in Christ changes lives and that fact can not overlook. Learning about other faiths is great, however, as Paul tell us in Galatians 2:4-5 we need to be careful either way.

Dave

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Adam,

You said, 'I'm at the point right now of trying to learn what the Church truly stands for. After over 6 months I've discovered I haven't even nicked the surface of an ocean of knowledge.

Wouldn't it have been wiser to find out what the Catholic Church teaches before joining with a system of belief. What happens when you find the dogma telegraphs to the naive many errors?

 

[Brother Adam]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Brother Adam,

You said, 'I'm at the point right now of trying to learn what the Church truly stands for. After over 6 months I've discovered I haven't even nicked the surface of an ocean of knowledge.

Wouldn't it have been wiser to find out what the Catholic Church teaches before joining with a system of belief. What happens when you find the dogma telegraphs to the naive many errors?

Hi Ray,

There seems to be about as much mass confusion on what the Catholic Church teaches as their is of me joining it.

I have no intention at this point in time, or any point in time in the near future of becoming a member. With the amount of reading I have set before me already, I'm guessing it would take at least a good five years just to finish with the books I want to get through- and that is just to learn what they believe. And as I said earlier- I'm not one to jump on a bandwagon based only on logic or intellectual arguments. Every faith uses logic and intellectualism to win converts.

My intention to listen in at a Catholic RCIA is not an intention to join at all.

God Bless,
Bro. Adam

 

[Carson Weber]

The deposit of faith, which is what Catholics believe, is found simply in the Apostles' Creed; the first pillar (of the four) of the Catechism is an exposition of this Creed.

Our response to this faith entails worship (Christian Liturgy), the Christian life of service and love (Gospel Morality), and a personal relationship with the Lord (Christian Prayer). These are the other three pillars of the Catechism.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
The deposit of faith, which is what Catholics believe, is found simply in the Apostles' Creed; the first pillar (of the four) of the Catechism is an exposition of this Creed.

Our response to this faith entails worship (Christian Liturgy), the Christian life of service and love (Gospel Morality), and a personal relationship with the Lord (Christian Prayer). These are the other three pillars of the Catechism.

"Deposit of Faith"? What is that and how and when does it happen? Who makes the deposit, or is it something that is found or discovered like a deposit of coal, or some other mineral? Please I am trying to understand that which is foreign to the faith that I know and understand.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Yelsew,

You asked what the Deposit of Faith is.

This is the content of divine revelation, which culminated in the person of Jesus Christ.

"In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world" (Heb 1:1-2).

The term "deposit" is a translation of the Greek "paratheke", used by St. Paul when describing what is to be guarded by St. Timothy in 1 Tim 6:20.

"O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted (Gk. paratheke) to you."

The deposit of faith was entrusted by the Apostles to bishops, who are to guard it and transmit it faithfully.

"[A]nd what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim 2:2).

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi Yelsew,

You asked what the Deposit of Faith is.

This is the content of divine revelation, which culminated in the person of Jesus Christ.

"In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world" (Heb 1:1-2).

The term "deposit" is a translation of the Greek "paratheke", used by St. Paul when describing what is to be guarded by St. Timothy in 1 Tim 6:20.

"O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted (Gk. paratheke) to you."

The deposit of faith was entrusted by the Apostles to bishops, who are to guard it and transmit it faithfully.

"[A]nd what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim 2:2).

Sounds like "making disciples" to me. That is, passing on faithfully God's holy word. Handing down from one and receiving by another. That is afterall what Paul did with Timothy. And what all of the Apostles did for so many others. They did not keep it for themselves. It does not take a pope and a college of Cardinals to do that. It takes faithful men (male and female) to receive and pass on faithfully the word of God. That is how Adam's story finally reached Moses who is attributed with committing it to writing. Now we have the writings of the Apostles, and thanks to faithful men empowered by the Holy Spirit we have the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of the Apostles, the prophets and Kings...The Holy Bible, by which all men can know God and come to faith in Him. THAT IS GOD's PURPOSE!

 

[Frank]

James 2 and Ephesians 2 are in perfect harmony with one another. Men who have biblical faith that saves are active in receiving the grace that saves. (Hebrews 11:6, Romans 5:1,2.) In fact, belief itself is a work of God that we are to do.

In John 6:27-29,27, the Bible says,  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28  ¶Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. It is apparent that an active working faith saves, not a dead one. This is not to say menmerit salvation because they have an active faith.

The scriptures Ephesians 2;8,9 are often times provided as a proof text for receivng salvation without an obedient woking faith. This text fails to prove that which is intended in three ways.

One, grammatically it does not support faith only. The word " This" ( tuoto, neuter gender) cannot refer to " Grace" ( charis feminine gender) or " Faith" ( pistis, feminine gender).

Contextually," this " refers to " you have been saved." God's gift could not have been faith, for faith is always self-developed by hearing God's word. ( Romans 10: 17). It is written in the prophets they shall all be taught of God. ( John 6:45). If faith is given miraculously,then the apostle John made a mistake in the first 21 chapters stating that these things were written that you might believe. As a result of a midnight sermon a Phillipian jailer developed faith. (Acts 16:25-34).

If God miraculously imparts faith he would do so for all sinners as he wants all to be saved. ( II Pet. 3:9). And, since God is no respecter of persons ( Romans 2:11; Acts 10:34),there would be no unbelievers. Yet Jesus said that " he that believeth not shall be damned. ( Mark 16:16).

Secondly, The examples of conversion in the Bible all required a response on the part of the one receivng salvation. ( Acts 2;38, 8:12-14;8:30-40;10:48;16:30-33;18:8;22:16;19:1-6).

Thirdly, the Bible is not harmonious concerning the issue of salvation. In fact,it contradcits itself.

 

[Brother Adam]

Thirdly, the Bible is not harmonious concerning the issue of salvation. In fact,it contradcits itself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frank,

If the Bible contradicts itself it is not inerrant or infallible, and thus is certainly not trustworthy. By your delination, I should not be a Christian at all.

 

[thessalonian]

"Wouldn't it have been wiser to find out what the Catholic Church teaches before joining with a system of belief. What happens when you find the dogma telegraphs to the naive many errors? "

Ray,

Can you please prove for us that your teaching does not transmit any errors? If you know it transmits errors then how many? Where is your doctrine specifically in error. In particular, you contradict many other Christians. In fact most all of them in some point of doctrine. Are they right or are you. Are they correct in some things and you in others. You have been a pastor from my understanding and have preached things as if they were straight from God. Now can you tell me which things you have preached in error so that we know that you are the one who has all the truth? Surely by your post above, having THE TRUTH is important. Jesus told his disciples to "teach ALL THINGS" that he commanded them (see Matt 28). Do you have all of these things that Jesus commanded. Oh I know, they are in the Bible but once again you contradict other Christians in your interprutation of them so do you have them ALL.

Blessings

PS - Going to RCIA is not joining the Catholic Church. It is inquiring in to what the Catholic Church really teaches rather than getting the distorted ray berrian version.

God bless

[ July 07, 2003, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

[JFS]

Sounds like "making disciples" to me. That is, passing on faithfully God's holy word. Handing down from one and receiving by another. That is afterall what Paul did with Timothy. And what all of the Apostles did for so many others. They did not keep it for themselves. It does not take a pope and a college of Cardinals to do that. It takes faithful men (male and female) to receive and pass on faithfully the word of God. That is how Adam's story finally reached Moses who is attributed with committing it to writing. Now we have the writings of the Apostles, and thanks to faithful men empowered by the Holy Spirit we have the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of the Apostles, the prophets and Kings...The Holy Bible, by which all men can know God and come to faith in Him. THAT IS GOD's PURPOSE!

Does not the Pope and the colledge of Cardinals qualify as "Faithful men"? After 2000 years I think the Catholic Church resembles more of the Church that the Aposles set up then any other. Will your decendants, after 2000 years, resemble your church in any way ? Will your children believe the same things about Jesus that you do after 2000 years?

God Bless You

John

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Originally posted by Frank:
Thirdly, the Bible is not harmonious concerning the issue of salvation. In fact,it contradcits itself.

This is an interesting statement and one I would not have expected from you, Frank. Would you care to elaborate?

For the most part, the debates in this forum originate with the concept that all Scripture is true and accurate, albeit, interpretations may vary. To dismiss this premise puts the debates back past square one as we would have to first determine which Scripture speaks truth in order to have a solid premise on which to build.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

As long as the bible is around, there will be fundamental Christians.

I'm sorry, but the RCC does not resemble any church I see in scripture.

 

[Frank]

Clint:
Yes, I would love to elaborate on number three. One cannot dismiss works from belief. Belief is a verb of action. For one to say we are saved without works CONTRADICTS the Bible and the very meaning of belief in the original language. I do not believe the Bible contradicts itself.

However, the one who teaches men are saved seperate and a part from a working faith find themselves in a self-imposed contradiction. The controversy over James 2 and Ephesans 2 is the example of which I speak. The idea that one can be saved without a working faith is not found in scripture. Therefore, to appeal to Ephesisans 2:8,9 as a proof-text for faith that does not work is simply wrong based on the three things I posted. One, contextually the original grammatical construct of Ephesians 2:8,9 will not allow for such an interpretation. Two, ALL Examples of Conversion teach us the individuals had a working active faith in their conversion. ALL NINE. Three, To ignore one and two and to appeal for faith only conversion simply cannot be harmonized with the grammar of the text in question ( Eph. 2:8,9). If one persists with this line of argumentation in the face of his grammatical quandry, he must then distort or twist text of the nine examples of conversion that teach a working active faith is essential to appropriate the grace that saves. Romans 5:1,2. Finally, the one who appeals to Eph. 2:8,9 for salvation by grace or faith alone stands opposed to both the original inspired language, contextual structure, and the nine examples of conversion that exemplify grace through BIBLICAL faith.

In essence, THIS PERSON ATTEMPTS TO CONTRADICT THE TEACHINGS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE ALIEN SINNER. The capitals are for emphasis. I am not shouting.

Let me state without equivocation, I believe the word of God to be complete and harmonious in every way. This is the precise reason I made the previous post, which included the three scriptural objections to Faith only, Grace only or anything only. The Bible simply does not teach it.

Therefore, he who espouses such a doctrine, BY HIS INTERPRETAION, makes the bible contradict itself and stand opposed to itself. I hope this makes the previous post as clear as clear can be.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Carson Weber,

While I was pastor in Allentown, Pennsylvania we either used the Apostle's Creed or the Nicene Creed in Divine worship, but this did not make me Roman Catholic. As I recall these creeds only have very basic theology that is recited in a service of worship. I think they were important to use so we have a basic concept as to what Christ has done for us and is still ministering in our lives and hearts.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Thessalonian,

You brought a big smile to my face when I read your post. A happy heart is a good thing.

Whenever people explain the Scripture there are always those will view it as distortion. We have to keep in mind that not every lay person is gifted by God in Scriptural interpretation. Those who He genuinely calls into the ministry, He also gifts them with abilities to understand deep spiritual truth. People around Jesus thought that He was distorting truth also.

I don't have all the answers and am willing to defer to other people who know more than I do in certain areas of concern. I don't tell people truth until I am convinced by the aid of the Spirit and hours of study and research that I really do understand the issue at hand.

You ask the questions and I'll answer your questions with the truth that comes from His sacred lips, and not by my human logic.

For example He says that when we receive Christ, {John 1:12} He give us the Holy Spirit forever. {John 14:16} Do you believe this with all of your inner strength of mind and heart?