Satan Murdered Jesus - The Scripture and Theology

[JonC]

Again, the same claim, and still no reference.
Did I say God compelled those wicked men, under the influence of Satan, to sin? Nope. Why not address what I did say?

Is carrying out God's predetermined plan a sinful act? Nope. Here is the issue, God arranged and orchestrated Christ's crucifixion, and so those acting in accordance with that plan would know they need to "repent" of those "sinful" acts. But did God punish them for carrying out God's predetermined plan? You say yes. But since that does not fit with "my" idea of our "just" God, I say no. Scripture seems silent on the matter.

This is the very same issue as when I say, as a born anew believer, I do not sin. Not that I do not do and think sinful acts and thoughts, for I surely do, but that God does not apply consequences to my sinful acts, as I am forgiven already.

A wealthy father of two grown churches often becomes seriously ill.
The wicked son prays that his father died so that he can get an inheritance.
The loving son prays that his father recovers.
The Father dies. That was God's will.
You praise the wicked son as he prayed for what was ultimately God's will, and you condemn the loving son because his father died.

That's just an illustration. Let's look at Christ and the Cross.

Peter referred to the killing of Christ as a sin, but indicated that those men could be forgiven.

You say they did not sin because it was God's predetermined plan that Christ died under the scheme of Satan. But you ignore the reason it was God's will, which is found in the Resurrection.

You put 11 of the Disciples in the evil category for viewing Christ's death as unjust and Satan (in Judas) in the good category for working to kill Jesus.

You label Peter as wicked because he told the pharisees Jesus called children of Satan that their action, while being God's will, was evil.

You praise those men Jesus called children of the Devil because they plotted to kill Jesus, which was God's will.


You and Martin have a very unbiblical theory.

I believe you cannot be persuaded by Scripture. You and Martin are what Scripture speaks of when God warns us not to be carried away by vain philosophy.


But, according to the Bible those who planned to kill Jesus were children of the Devil, it was Satan who entered Judas to betray Christ, Christ suffered and died at the hands of wicked men, evil doers, was crucified unjustly, and that crucifixion was evil, unjust, and sinful.

It is Van and Martin vs Scripture. I choose to believe the later.


And you are wrong by saying you do not sin. The born again Christian has a Mediator in Christ.

You address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, so you should conduct yourselves in fear.

Instead you post that you do not sin since you are a Christian. I suggest your approach to Scripture on this issue is in fact a sin as it is leaning on your own understanding rather than trusting God's word.

Your post highlights the danger of being carried away by philosophy. You think you no longer need forgiveness.


My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ the Righteous One.

 

[Van]

SNIP

Peter referred to the killing of Christ as a sin, but indicated that those men could be forgiven.

You say they did not sin because it was God's predetermined plan that Christ died under the scheme of Satan.

You put 11 of the Disciples in the evil category for viewing Christ's death as unjust and Satan (in Judas) in the good category for working to kill Jesus.

You label Peter as wicked because he told the pharisees Jesus called children of Satan that their action, while being God's will, was evil.

You praise those men Jesus called children of the Devil because they plotted to kill Jesus, which was God's will.

And you are wrong by saying you do not sin. The born again Christian has a Mediator in Christ.

Your post highlights the danger of being carried away by philosophy. You think you no longer need forgiveness.

My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ the Righteous One.

LOL, YOU do know against the person argumentation is fallacious argumentation!

1) No specific reference to your unsupportable claim Peter referred to the killing of Jesus as a sin.

2) I said they committed a sinful act in killing Jesus, but God did not impose the penalty for that sin.

3) I never put the Disciples in an evil category for viewing Christs death as unjust.

4) I never put Satan in a good category.

5) I never labelled Peter as wicked.

7) My view accepts 1 John 5:18, you deny it.

8) I continue to think and do sinful stuff so I know I need forgiveness. Your claim that I do not know that is false.

9) 1 John 2:1 uses the subjunctive "if anyone sins" which refers to us thinking or doing what would be sinful if not saved, that we have our Intercessor that shields us from those consequences.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Psalm 22 could help you out. Those people were not tempting Jesus to come down, to disobey. They were mocking Him. That is why the passages says that they were mocking Him.

Just to be quite clear. I agree with you that they were mocking Him.

So what is Satan telling Him now? Is he saying, “No, no! Don’t listen to them! You must stay up there”? No, he’s saying, “Listen to those people; they’re mocking You! You don’t have to put up with that. Come down from the cross; then they’ll have to believe in You. Your Father will understand.”

But that is beside the point.

The title of this thread is "Satan murdered Jesus." Jesus says, "No one takes My life from Me."
End of story.

 

[Van]

SNIP
The title of this thread is "Satan murdered Jesus." Jesus says, "No one takes My life from Me."
End of story.

Winner!!!!!

 

[kyredneck]

The title of this thread is "Satan murdered Jesus." Jesus says, "No one takes My life from Me."
End of story.

Satan murdered Jesus, AND, no one took His life from Him. End of story.

 

[Van]

Murder is the intentional taking of innocent life, thus Satan did not "murder" Jesus. God the Son gave His life as a ransom for all. He finished His commission as the Lamb of God.

 

[Arthur King]

Murder is the intentional taking of innocent life, thus Satan did not "murder" Jesus. God the Son gave His life as a ransom for all. He finished His commission as the Lamb of God.

Again, the willingness of the one murdered doesn't change the act of murder. Let's say I am one of several hostages. The ones who hold us hostage say they are going to murder one of us. I volunteer myself in order to save the other hostages. My willingness to be the one murdered does not change the fact that they are murdering me. Murder simply means "unjust killing" or "killing of the innocent" and has to do with the innocence or desert of the one killed, not with their willingness.

 

[Arthur King]

Just to be quite clear. I agree with you that they were mocking Him.

But that is beside the point.

The title of this thread is "Satan murdered Jesus." Jesus says, "No one takes My life from Me."
End of story.

Again, the willingness of the one murdered doesn't change the act of murder. Let's say I am one of several hostages. The ones who hold us hostage say they are going to murder one of us. I volunteer myself in order to save the other hostages. My willingness to be the one murdered does not change the fact that they are murdering me. Murder simply means "unjust killing" or "killing of the innocent" and has to do with the innocence or desert of the one killed, not with their willingness.

 

[37818]

Again, the willingness of the one murdered doesn't change the act of murder. Let's say I am one of several hostages. The ones who hold us hostage say they are going to murder one of us. I volunteer myself in order to save the other hostages. My willingness to be the one murdered does not change the fact that they are murdering me. Murder simply means "unjust killing" or "killing of the innocent" and has to do with the innocence or desert of the one killed, not with their willingness.

The argument is irrelevant to Satan having murdered someone he could not have killed.

 

[Arthur King]

The argument is irrelevant to Satan having murdered someone he could not have killed.

Why couldn't the devil murder Jesus? Why couldn't the devil kill Jesus in the same way other sinners did?

 

[JonC]

LOL, YOU do know against the person argumentation is fallacious argumentation!

1) No specific reference to your unsupportable claim Peter referred to the killing of Jesus as a sin.

2) I said they committed a sinful act in killing Jesus, but God did not impose the penalty for that sin.

3) I never put the Disciples in an evil category for viewing Christs death as unjust.

4) I never put Satan in a good category.

5) I never labelled Peter as wicked.

7) My view accepts 1 John 5:18, you deny it.

8) I continue to think and do sinful stuff so I know I need forgiveness. Your claim that I do not know that is false.

9) 1 John 2:1 uses the subjunctive "if anyone sins" which refers to us thinking or doing what would be sinful if not saved, that we have our Intercessor that shields us from those consequences.

References have already been provided (Peter's sermon in Acts, Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, John 8).

Let's not pretend you will be persuaded by Scripture.

 

[37818]

Why couldn't the devil murder Jesus? Why couldn't the devil kill Jesus in the same way other sinners did?

Where does God accuse Satan of murdering Jesus?

 

[JonC]

Just to be quite clear. I agree with you that they were mocking Him.

But that is beside the point.

The title of this thread is "Satan murdered Jesus." Jesus says, "No one takes My life from Me."
End of story.

Again, nobody is denying that.

You are trying to pull out verses while denying others. Scripture is not a smorgasbord where you get to pick and choose which verses to believe.

Jesus said "No one takes my life from me. I give my life of my own free will. I have the authority to give my life, and I have the authority to take my life back again."

That is true. He lay down His own life and died under the powers of evil, of Satan.


Your neo-Christianity is odd (even for a Penal Substitution theorist). Is this new kind of faith popular in the UK (it does seem that liberalism often starts there and then infects other countries).

 

[JonC]

Where does God accuse Satan of murdering Jesus?

Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, John 8, and Acts 2-3.....to name a few.

Jesus called those who came against Him as being of the Devil (Satan). Satan entered Judas to turn Christ over. Those who crucified Christ are called "wicked men", "evil", and "evil doers", "unjust", Peter classified the crucifixion as evil, as sin.

But this was God's predetermined plan. God would vindicated Christ, Christ would be raised from the grave (the "resurrection") thereby disarming Satan (and removing the sting of death).


Do you know of any verses stating that Jesus was killed by godly men, men doing God's will, or even by God?

 

[Arthur King]

Where does God accuse Satan of murdering Jesus?

see the OP. Jesus explicitly states that the devil is a murderer whose desires and deeds are to kill him.

Genesis 3:15 explicitly states that the serpent will strike a fatal wound to the Son.

 

[37818]

Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, John 8, and Acts 2-3.....to name a few.

Jesus called those who came against Him as being of the Devil (Satan). Satan entered Judas to turn Christ over. Those who crucified Christ are called "wicked men", "evil", and "evil doers", "unjust", Peter classified the crucifixion as evil, as sin.

But this was God's predetermined plan. God would vindicated Christ, Christ would be raised from the grave (the "resurrection") thereby disarming Satan (and removing the sting of death).


Do you know of any verses stating that Jesus was killed by godly men, men doing God's will, or even by God?

Quote one of the accusations, so there can be no mistake, God says Satan murdered Jesus.

 

[37818]

see the OP. Jesus explicitly states that the devil is a murderer whose desires and deeds are to kill him.

Genesis 3:15 explicitly states that the serpent will strike a fatal wound to the Son.

What does God say, that Satan had murdered Jesus? There is no such teaching. Not Psalms 22. Not John 19:28-30. Not Luke 23:46.

 

[Arthur King]

What does God say, that Satan had murdered Jesus? There is no such teaching. Not Psalms 22. Not John 19:28-30. Not Luke 23:46.

You began by saying that the devil COULDN'T have murdered Jesus. It seems now you are saying that he DIDN'T, by mentioning passages of Scripture where it doesn't say that Satan murdered Jesus. You are right. There are thousands of verses in the Bible that do not mention Satan murdering Jesus. But that's like saying "there are hundreds of lines of dialogue in Star Wars that don't mention Darth Vader as Luke's father, therefore Darth Vader is not Luke's father." @Martin Marprelate also tried similar arguments from silence.

What is important, and what you need to deal with are the many passages of scripture that DO say that Satan murdered Jesus.

Like the one in the very first gospel, two pages into the Bible, where God explicitly says the serpent will strike a fatal wound to the Son of the woman.

 

[37818]

Genesis 3:15 explicitly states that the serpent will strike a fatal wound to the Son.

The Serpent gets the wounded head, not the Son.

 

[37818]

You began by saying that the devil COULDN'T have murdered Jesus. It seems now you are saying that he DIDN'T, by mentioning passages of Scripture where it doesn't say that Satan murdered Jesus. You are right. There are thousands of verses in the Bible that do not mention Satan murdering Jesus. But that's like saying "there are hundreds of lines of dialogue in Star Wars that don't mention Darth Vader as Luke's father, therefore Darth Vader is not Luke's father." @Martin Marprelate also tried similar arguments from silence.

What is important, and what you need to deal with are the many passages of scripture that DO say that Satan murdered Jesus.

Like the one in the very first gospel, two pages into the Bible, where God explicitly says the serpent will strike a fatal wound to the Son of the woman.

The Serpent gets the wounded head, not the Son.

.