Savage Remarks on RCC

[SeekingTruth]

I hope that criticism of the RCC is aimed at the hierarchy of the church, not the members. They have been deceived for years by the hierarchy. I have many Catholic friends that I believe have been saved. I do not agree with their church and its teachings, and have told them so in a kind manner.

I think that any denomination that has done the evils that the RCC has done should be criticized and brought to task for its deeds. On this thought, I have no doubt that at the time of judgement, this will occur and the sword of the Lord will spare none who are guilty of leading His children astray.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

ST,

You make some good points there. For the most part, I agree with you. But, when does a Catholic become responsible for himself and what he tells others about God and the Bible, even if he is not a leader in the Church?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[SeekingTruth]

JB, like every other Christian, that Catholic who has been saved by God's grace is responsible from the moment he is saved. However, at the risk of being called a Catholic defender, they are not the only ones who have forgotten the commandments to witness. I fear that many Baptists have also forgotten that.

We all need to be more mindful of our responsibility to proclaim the gospel. Those of us who do not spread His word will be dealt with in due course. I am convinced that God through His Holy Spirit will convict them of their shortcomings. Yet, while they may have sinned by not spreading the gospel, their salvation is not jeopardized. Unlike the Catholic Church, we do not need another man to absolve us of our sins. We have a High Priest after the order of Malchisedek (sp?) who intercedes for us with the Father. Praise Him for that.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
[qb]The Catholic Church was created by Christ

If you believe this lie, the rest of them fall right into place.

Next time somebody tells you that, ask them why we see each of the Baptist Distinctives being taught on a regular basis in the NT church.

You see, Roman Catholicism is based on a misunderstanding of one verse. That's just one verse, but we can trace our traditions back to the NT and we have dozens and dozens of examples to back them up.

There was one church in the NT and it was neither Baptist nor Catholic (certainly not the Roman Catholic church we see today!). Catholics, Baptists/Anabaptists/Protestants/various Orthodox churches all grew out of the NT church but none of us can claim exclusivity to it.

There are a lot of serious doctrinal problems to overcome between Catholics and Baptists, but I think we'd be a lot further down the road of communication if they would just admit that we have as much a claim to the NT church as they do.

...and then the Phillies will win the World Series.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by SeekingTruth:
I hope that criticism of the RCC is aimed at the hierarchy of the church, not the members. They have been deceived for years by the hierarchy. I have many Catholic friends that I believe have been saved. I do not agree with their church and its teachings, and have told them so in a kind manner.

I've got to be honest with you, for all of the number of rank and file Catholics I've talked to, I don't believe that I could make that distinction. They are among the rudest and most obnoxious people I've ever met. They will stop at nothing to defend their church's heresies and will tell you flat out, "ex ecclesiam nullus salus", which is Latin for "Pack your suntan lotion, non-Catholics. You're headed for a hot place."

 

[JFox1]

People like to criticize Catholics for defending their false teachings, but the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh-Day Adventists, ollowers of Herbert Armstrong and others are just as dogmatic about their beliefs. I recently had a heated discussion with a Seventh-Day Adventist who said that since I believe the devil's lie (I had the nerve to disagree with their teachings on soul sleep and worship on Saturday and not Sunday), I will share the devil's fate!

Back in the 1980s, I received some literature from a very conservative member of the Eastern Orthodox Church by the name of Raphael Masterjohn, who wrote articles condemning both Catholics and Protestants to hell as heretics because neither churches believe in Eastern Orthodox teachings.

A couple years ago on another message board, a Muslim guy became really ticked off at me and said, "You will be brought forth on the Day of Judgment for all of your mischief and crimes and for all the pain you have caused humanity, and mostly you will be judged for your arrogance in denying the communications of your Lord."

To all the people who want me to burn in hell for all eternity, get in line.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SeekingTruth:
I hope that criticism of the RCC is aimed at the hierarchy of the church, not the members. They have been deceived for years by the hierarchy. I have many Catholic friends that I believe have been saved. I do not agree with their church and its teachings, and have told them so in a kind manner.

I've got to be honest with you, for all of the number of rank and file Catholics I've talked to, I don't believe that I could make that distinction. They are among the rudest and most obnoxious people I've ever met. They will stop at nothing to defend their church's heresies and will tell you flat out, "ex ecclesiam nullus salus", which is Latin for "Pack your suntan lotion, non-Catholics. You're headed for a hot place." </font>[/QUOTE]Not all Catholics believe that...as a matter of fact, many Catholics tend to lean toward universalism. I think it has something to do with Vatican 2.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Mike McK]

double post

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Mike McK:

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
[qb]Not all Catholics believe that...as a matter of fact, many Catholics tend to lean toward universalism. I think it has something to do with Vatican 2.

Joseph Botwinick

On the one hand, I know that there's some truth to what you're saying. There is a lot of liberalism and universalism in Roman Catholicism, but you wouldn't know it by the Roman Catholics I've talked to. They all seem to be pretty convinced that we're going to Hell unless we're aligned with Rome.

Come over to Christianforums.com sometime. They'll try to put you in your place.

 

[The Galatian]

The official position of the Roman Catholic church on other Christian denominations is that they are in error (each denomination thinks all the others are in error in some way) but that they are brothers in Christ and they can also save.

In the early 60s, that's what they were teaching in religion classes in Catholic Churches. Still do. Can't say before that.

I don't doubt there are some Catholics who (like other defective Christians who can be found in all other denominations as well) would deny this doctrine.

But that's not what the Church teaches.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

You should learn what they teach, before telling us what they don't teach.

[QB]1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.

And that Pesky ole' Athanasian Creed. (no, I won't link to it. Look it up.)

 

[The Galatian]

You should learn what they teach, before telling us what they don't teach.

Perhaps you should start thinking for yourself. You've been badly misled by your preacher.

Here's the Roman Catholic stand on the issue:

From "Nostra Aetate" by Pope John Paul II:

Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.

And:
"Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts,[19] which the Apostle strongly condemned.[20] But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.

The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church- whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church--do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body,[21] and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.[22]

Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.

The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.

It follows that the separated Churches[23] and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.
DECREE ON ECUMENISM - UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO
Proclaimed By His Holiness, Pope Paul VI on November 21, 1964

There is, in Catholic belief, the "Baptism of Desire", which does not require anything but a sincere desire to be with God and serve Him. And this can happen to anyone, of any faith.

As the following passages from the works of the Church Fathers illustrate, Christians have always believed in the normative necessity of water baptism, while also acknowledging the legitimacy of baptism by desire or blood.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Necessity_of_Baptism.asp

The Good Thief was such a person. Here's another, supposedly true story of such a conversion:

A young man in North Korea, not even knowing Jesus, one day in a field felt God's presence, and gave himself up to this unknown deity.

Later he escaped to the south and only then learned Who it was had touched him in that field.

A Catholic would say that he was saved at the moment he gave himself to God, even if he had no idea who It was.

How about you? And please, if you want to talk about the things Catholics believe, at least learn about it first. Fair enough?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

What do they say about those who learn about, then reject the RCC ?

Alkso, will you address the creed I refferred to ?

 

[The Galatian]

Actually, the Athanasian Creed (which is not, BTW, Athanasian) has three assertions:

1. The doctrine of the Trinity, three persons in one God.

2. The divinity and twofold nature of Christ.

3. The necessity of accepting these two doctrines for a Christian, for which salvation is necessary.

With what part of this does any orthodox Christian find fault?

The part that requires adherence to the Catholic Church merely means the Christian Church as it was at the time. You, if you are one of his people, are a member of the Catholic Church. You just aren't a Roman Catholic. "Catholic" refers to the body of Christ, the faithful throughout the world, Roman Catholic or not.

One can only believe what one believes. The Catholic Church, by the doctrine describing invincible ignorance, recognizes that one is only responsible for sins, when one is aware of them. So if a person is honestly convinced that leaving the Church is what God wants, then he has not sinned, and his salvation is not lost.

Does that help?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I get my stuff about said creed from the New Advent site. They break down the putrid doctrines from the bowels of Hell into layman's terms....

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.....


There are too many fun things to do today to argue, but this is worded funny. The tenents you posted are not the limits of what the church teaches, if they were, there would be no problem. The church claims authority over all christians, which is where the problems begin.

And yes, Athanasius may have not written it, but it does bear his name.

And this from the catechism....

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."[272]

Doesn't say anything about those who leave the church.

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.[334]

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[336]

Case closed. Have a great weekend.

 

[The Galatian]

As I mentioned to you, the Church teaches that a person who does what He believes to be God's will, is not punished for it. "Invincible ignorance" covers even one who leaves the Church.

As you learned, but seem reluctant to admit, the Athanasian Creed contains nothing not already admitted to by Christans.

1. The Trinity
2. Jesus was fully man and fully God.
3. The only salvation is through Him and His church.

Your concerns are due to a misunderstanding of the Athanasian Creed, the nature of the Catholic (as opposed to Roman Catholic) church, and a misunderstanding of the Roman Catholic beliefs regarding other churches.

And that closes the case. You have a nice weekend, too.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by The Galatian:
3. The only salvation is through Him and His church.

Not all Christians agrew with this. The Church did not die for my sins...Christ did. Salvation is through Christ alone. I believe this was one of the major rifts between the reformers and the RCC.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Solus Christus ("Christ alone"; sometimes Solo Christo, "by Christ alone")

Christ is the exclusive mediator between God and man. Neither Mary, the saints, nor priests (other than Christ himself) can act as mediator in bringing salvation. This doctrine is contrasted with the Catholic doctrines of the intercession of saints and of the function of priests.

The Five Solas of the Reformation

Joseph Botwinick

 

[The Galatian]

"Sola Fide" is man's invention. Martin Luther lobbied to have the Book of James removed from the Bible, because he correctly asserted that it contradicted his new doctrine. It is not only contradicted in James, but also in Matthew, where Jesus says that one's works will determine where one spends eternity.

"Sola Scriptura" is also man's invention. There is no scriptural justification for it, and since Scripture itself was determined by men using inspiration, scholarship, and tradition, it cannot be more reliable than the means by which it was assembled.

The notion that merit cannot be part of salvation is contradicted by Christ Himself, who told a woman who touched his cloak in the faith that it would heal her, "And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace."

The rest are both scriptural and correct, however.

If you think you cannot intercede with God for someone, why do you bother praying for them? I would think Mary has at least as good a relationship with Him as you do.

 

[JFox1]

What is so wrong with the Athanasian Creed? It defends the deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity. "Catholic faith" refers to the Christian faith, not specifically the Roman Catholic Church. My denomination, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, uses the Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed. We recite the Athanasian Creed every Trinity Sunday.

While we are saved by grace through faith and we cannot earn our way to Heaven, God still wants us to do good deeds: For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that is not of yourselves; it is God's gift. It is not by works, so that no one may boast; for we are His handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God previously prepared for us so that we should live in them. Ephesians 2:8-10 Modern Language Bible aka New Berkeley Version.