Savage Remarks on RCC

I wonder if the Protestants have repealed theirs. There was a lot of that going on. However, the Church now considers other Christian denominations our brothers in Christ, and believes that they save as well.

And that's a good start. Some of those denominations, of course, are not spiritually ready to be equally accepting, but time and patience will surely help. </font>[/QUOTE]Baptists have historically always believed in soul liberty. That is one of the great Baptist distinctives. You are throwing out a red herring. The Catholic Church has not apologized as it continues to condemn through the Council of Trent all those who believe in justification by faith, which means every single evangelical that I know of.
DHK

 

It means writing. If they are the words of God, (and they are), it is because we can trust the inspiration, and the scholarship and the tradition that guided men to choose the books that comprise it.

It can be no more authoritative than the means by which it was produced. And as noted before, Sola Scriptura is not a Biblical doctrine.

It is a modern addition, made by men. </font>[/QUOTE]You are putting Men on top of Words of God.

You are believing Tradition on top of Words of God, because you don't know how to discern what is the true Words of God.

 

What makes you think that? What a silly idea. Surely, we will be able to know and do much more when we are in heaven, but we will not be omniscient.

If Mary is not Omni-Present or Omni-Scient now, how can she accept the prayers from 1.3 billion people? Can you (you personally) accept prayers from 1.3 billion everytime, every moment and then convey to God ?

I can't believe you're serious here. Do you not pray to God for others? If so, what makes you think He will hear your prayer, and not hers? </font>[/QUOTE]Because you are praying to Mary, not to God the Father .

 

Barbarian observes:
It means writing. If they are the words of God, (and they are), it is because we can trust the inspiration, and the scholarship and the tradition that guided men to choose the books that comprise it.

It can be no more authoritative than the means by which it was produced. And as noted before, Sola Scriptura is not a Biblical doctrine.

It is a modern addition, made by men.

No, I'm doing just the opposite. I'm saying that the Bible can be no more authoritative than the means by which men compiled it.

I told you how they discerned the Bible. By inspiration, and tradition and scholarship. You seem to be attributing to those men, things that are only God's. They were not God, and it is a mistake for you to assume that they had His powers.

 

In fact, Pope Paul and others have said that other churches also save, and remain in communion with the Catholic Church in spite of errors we believe they make. He called them our brothers in Christ, and this was a statement Ex Cathedra, which is authoritative and binding on all Roman Catholics.

If it serves your needs to believe something else, so be it. But that's what it is.

 

Originally posted by The Galatian:
Barbarian observes:
Did you not know that Jesus defeated death for all time? Mary is as alive as you are. And so are all the others in Heaven. And they can pray for you as much as anyone else.

She is not dead. Jesus defeated death for those who will trust in Him. This is the most basic of Christian beliefs. If you don't accept that, what do you accept that He has told us?

Barbarian chuckles:
What makes you think that? What a silly idea. Surely, we will be able to know and do much more when we are in heaven, but we will not be omniscient.

I don't know that she can. But like any saint in heaven, she can hear prayer of Christians, and can pray for us.

Barbarian observes:
I can't believe you're serious here. Do you not pray to God for others? If so, what makes you think He will hear your prayer, and not hers?

You're dodging the question. What makes you think that He will hear your prayer, and not hers? If I ask you to pray for me, or her to pray for me, what is the difference? Do you think you have a better relationship with Him?

From the time of the apostles, they taught Christians to do this. The Communion of saints is a basic part of Christianity.

 

Barbarian observes:
It means writing. If they are the words of God, (and they are), it is because we can trust the inspiration, and the scholarship and the tradition that guided men to choose the books that comprise it.

It can be no more authoritative than the means by which it was produced. And as noted before, Sola Scriptura is not a Biblical doctrine.

It is a modern addition, made by men.


Do you believe that the scholarship and the tradition are perfect? What if the Holy Spirit in you tells the tradition and the scholarship are wrong and false ?

Do you believe that All the scripture is given by Inspiration of God ? or Do you trust the means by which men compiled it more than the Words of God? What are the means which you trust now ?

I told you how they discerned the Bible. By inspiration, and tradition and scholarship. You seem to be attributing to those men, things that are only God's. They were not God, and it is a mistake for you to assume that they had His powers.</font>[/QUOTE]Do you have this guidance ?
John 16:13-14
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

1 Jon 2:27
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you : but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things , and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Where do you find Human Tradition and Scholars in the Bible ?

Have you chosen Jesus to believe? or Has Jesus chosen you ?
Read this:

John 15: 16
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,

 

Do you believe this?

1 Thess 4:14

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


Why are the Roman Catholics anoying their Holy Mother by praying to her while she is sleeping ?

 

I don't know that she can. But like any saint in heaven, she can hear prayer of Christians, and can pray for us.
[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]How can you pray to the person whom you don't know very well, while you do not know whether she can accept the prayers from 1.3 billion around the world? ?

Is it not the Satan that is misleading you to pray to the dead woman who is sleeping, so that you may not pray to God the Father directly?

 

You're dodging the question. What makes you think that He will hear your prayer, and not hers? If I ask you to pray for me, or her to pray for me, what is the difference?
[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I can pray for you because I am alive. But after my death I will sleep in the tomb and cannot pray for you. There is a clear distinction between dead person and the Believers alive. Dead believers are sleeping as we notice in 1 Cor 11:30, 15:20, 1 Thess 4:14, 4:15, Daniel 12:2.

Don't anoy your Holy Mother by awaking her! please.

Isaiah 8: 19
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead ?

 

Sleep? You must be in a Cult to believe that...

 

Sleep? You must be in a Cult to believe that... </font>[/QUOTE]You may be in a Cult not to believe in the Bible which I quote:

1 Cor 11:30, 15:20....

Read Bible before you judge others!

Have you read the Bible at least once?

 

Sleep? You must be in a Cult to believe that... </font>[/QUOTE]You may be in a Cult not to believe in the Bible which I quote:

1 Cor 11:30, 15:20....

Read Bible before you judge others!

Have you read the Bible at least once? </font>[/QUOTE]Uhhh, I’ve read the Bible, but who says your Cultic interpretation is better than mine?

It’s 100% obvious that the Bible teaches that the soul lives on after death. The New Testament shows various places that the dead are ALIVE in Christ, not in some state of unconsciousness and that the Scripture you quote refers to those Corinthians that are sick and do you sleep when you are ill? The sleep Paul is referring to is a physical sleep brought on by illness, not a spiritual sleep brought on by death.

As a matter of fact Jesus Christ Himself corrected the Sadducees OT belief of the state of the dead, by stating that God is the God of the living not of the dead...

 

All of that is just a facade. It is not sincere. If the Catholic Church was sincere they would repeal the anathemas made at the Council of Trent. Why are the anathemas of the Council of Trent not yet repealed if the Catholic Church if the Catholic Church so accepting of the Protestant denominatons. Are they that two-faced?
DHK

 

Barbarian observes:
In fact, Pope Paul and others have said that other churches also save, and remain in communion with the Catholic Church in spite of errors we believe they make. He called them our brothers in Christ, and this was a statement Ex Cathedra, which is authoritative and binding on all Roman Catholics.

If it serves your needs to believe something else, so be it. But that's what it is.

It is heartfelt, and sincere. Since John, Popes have sought to reach out and to find understandning and fellowship with Christians of other faiths. I hope you can come to terms with this fact.

There were plenty of anathemas and accusations to go around then. Protestants claimed similar things against Catholics. Now is now. Not a single one of the anathemas of the Council of Trent apply to any but Roman Catholics.

This is why, although Catholics must be orthodox in order to remain Cathoics, such a rule has no effect whatever on someone outside the Church.

If someone leaves the Church, and joins some other denomination, he is no longer a Roman Catholic.

However, as Pope Paul and John Paul II stated, even those churches in error (from a RC viewpoint) are still our brothers in Christ, and they still save.

And that's how it is. You aren't required to accept it, but you can speak truthfully about it, once you know about it.

 

Eliyahu, are you by any chance a Jehovah's witness? I have heard some of them describe such a doctrine.

We have, like it or not, an immortal soul, and death is just moving on, not a period of extinguishment.

 

There were never any anathemas by Baptists. Baptists don't believe in such. They believe in soul liberty--the right for any individual to believe what they think is right. They will verbally condemn false doctrine. But never will they persecute and/or kill because of it. Your statement "Protestants claimed similar things" is ridiculous in the light of the Inquistions, Crusades, and countless of millions that were slaughtered in the name of Catholicism, even for the cause of the anathemas stated in the Council of Trent which is still applicable today. Just what were they?
Let's get specific:

www.carm.org

Obviously every evangelical individual or church is damned to Hell by the dogmas of this coucil because we all believe that one is justified by faith.
DHK

 

Barbarian observes:
There were plenty of anathemas and accusations to go around then. Protestants claimed similar things against Catholics. Now is now. Not a single one of the anathemas of the Council of Trent apply to any but Roman Catholics.

[stupid joke]That's because they couldn't spell "anathema."[/stupid joke]

Seriously you must admit that even many Baptists have gone so far as to deny that Catholics are even Christians. Which goes far beyond anathema, which only says that the one so marked is no longer a member of the Roman Catholic faith.

Each doing what is right in his eyes? The Church teaches that man is given freedom of conscience by God, and that even if honestly mistaken, he is not judged thereby. The doctrine has a rather unfortunate name; "invincible ignorance." But it means that God judges you by your willingness to do what is right, even if you are in error.

You'll be happy to hear that Roman Catholics won't, either. In fact, Pope Paul, ex cathedra, has stated that it is a sin to oppress anyone for their religious convictions.

You think Protestants didn't do that? You are quite mistaken. It is corrosive to your soul to get into an argument about who had more atrocities. So we won't do that.

What were the anathemas? Statements of what you must believe in order to be a Roman Catholic. They are applicable only to people in the Church, not to people in other denominations, who are not in it to begin with.

(list of anathemas applicable to Roman Catholics)

But none for other churches. You are under them, only if you wish to be a Roman Catholic.

Now you know better. In fact, Pope Paul stated that these churches are our brothers in Christ and they can save souls as much as the Roman Catholic Church.

This is the truth. And I'm sure it would be a good thing for you to abide by it.

 

No, I don't know any better. Pope Paul spoke out of both sides of his mouth. If he truly meant what he said he would have repealed the anathemas decreed at the Council of Trent. But they are stil in place, and every Protestant alive today is under those anathemas in spite of what Pope Paul said. Until the decrees of the Council of Trent are reversed, if not entirely destroyed Pope Paul remains a hypocrite and a liar.
DHK

 

Yes, I maintain that one cannot seriously believe in Catholic doctrine and be a Christian at the same time. The two frameworks of theology are diametrically opposed to each other. One preaches a false gospel of works. The other preaches salvation by grace through faith. Both cannot be right.
Furthermore, I will not include all Protestants (for I know much better), but I will maintain that Baptists throughout history have not persecuted anyone. They were the persecuted. They were persecuted for their stand on baptism. They were persecuted because they sttod against the doctrines of the Catholic Church, against the doctrines of the Church of England. They were also persecuted at times by Calvin and even by Luther. But the Baptists did not persecute anyone. They were the ones that advocated throughout history soul liberty. They fought for it, and their history is written in a trail of blood.
DHK