Saved at birth? Part 2

...and taking on the attitude that goes along with it, I see :tear:

Just make sure you don't end up like npetreley (at least he can read my posts now, since he can't put me on ignore :laugh

 

You're the one who accused me of twisting scripture. Remarks like that don't promote a good attitude toward you.

And what is the difference between:
Those He foreknew, He predestined.
He predestined those He foreknew.

How did I twist the meaning?

You still haven't given me your interpretation of these verses.

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

 

...then Scripture shouldn't be twisted

Are you serious! Quite a bit. Can something be predestined but not foreknown? Can something be foreknown and not predestined?

Those He foreknow He predestined to become sons of God. He didn't predestine whom He foreknew...He foreknew whom would be predestined to become molded in Christ's image.

 

In both sentences the object of the predestination is those who were foreknown.

So, God knew beforehand who He would predestine.

 

It is a HUGE difference Amy. It is NOT interchangable.

If it were those whom He predestined He foreknow, then you have God determining FIRST who He will know so that he will know them. IOW - God creating a people specifically to be saved and then secondarily creating another people to be specifically for the purpose of being lost.

It is a form of double predestination that even the majority of mainline Calvinists will not accept.

What scripture sets forth is:
Those whom He foreknew, it was them He predetermined (they should be saved and therefore be in the likeness of His Son), (He then determined the means to save - Gospel) He called, (then the results of the message) He justified, (then the completion of His plan toward them He foreknew) He glorified.

God foreknew them before He predestined them.

 

Is that or is that not what the scripture explicitly states.

 

It's exactly what it says, and what I meant to Amy about it being a plain reading of Scripture.

 

Allan, I posted my last response to you on this very topic in a new thread.
I'd like to see you address exactly what God's foreknowledge entails.
Webdog too, since both of you deny the "foreseen faith" avenue that is common amongst non-Calvinists.

 

Hello skypair,

You can call me Double "0" 1 if you want.

It seems you filled in the blanks. However you just turned things around when you did. I asked if man had a choice to be "in Adam". A yes or no will do. Web said YES we have a choice to be "IN ADAM.

Yes..indeed it was IN ADAM. Was it our choice? This is what I asked ....and web said YES we have a choice to be "in Adam" the federal head of all of humanity . Why? I have no idea.

The "no law...no sin" has been missed used so many times on here its not funny. Have you ever read the text? Maybe you shold and get back with us if you dare.

Mean time we must not forget this..

That just about sums it up.

I have to agree with this. However, why are we all like Adam..or awww.."in Adam" and sin? If a person has the choice to be good...why do all men sin?

What is in the world that is cursed that causes man to sin? Is it apples? Is it trees?

Many many people...even most people never realize this condition. Are believers just smarter then non-believers? How high does ones IQ have to be, in order to be saved?
.

Once again you prove you have not a clue of Calvinism.

 

What I asked....and have for the last 4 post is this....

What places us "in Adam"? What choice do we have?

 

Sorry...me again. I hate to be a pain....but...

Someone keeps overlooking this post.

Just a small reminder.

 

God from the very beginning knew the end; would this then make Him responsible (because He elected by non-election) for every murder, every drunkered, every adulter and so on..? God Forbid!! Can we blame God with all of the wickedness in this world just because He did not elect some? The Bible does teach that God foreknows man's choices. Foreknowledge in election only refers to the sense that God knows who will accept or reject His salvation but it does not make Him responsible for man's choice. God could not be omniscience and not have foreknowledge. Man has a free will to accept or reject God. If only the elected get saved at his will then why would you need the power and conviction of the Holy Spirit? Just to fulfill scripture?

 

Who made Cain?
When did God 1st learn that Cain would kill?

 

sorry I missed it...
Election is not mechanical. It involves a God who is love and man who is morally responsible. It never is a violation of our human will. Election has two parts.
#1 - God elected a plan of salvation which He accomplished in Christ therefore we cannot glory. Man can either reject this plan or accept it.
#2 - God elected a people to make known His election plan of salvation in Christ.

 

1st I disagree....but no need to go there now, for this would just go down a path taking us away from the subject at hand.

2nd....you failed to answer. You used the "ol in Christ" debate and I showed you from the Bible where this is wrong. This is what I would like you to address.

 

That simple!

Not by works of righteousness which I have done but according to His mercy in sending Christ to the cross for whosoever will.

But of Him = Nothing that I could do it was His plan. He sent Christ for me. Do you use the Parables to interpret the Bible or the Bible to interpret the parables?

 

Then you agree..


Those who say that only Christ is the object of election, and that whoever comes into him becomes God's elect, this passage says,.... "It is because of him" – that is, because of God that you are in Christ Jesus. God is the one who decides who becomes "in Christ," and he is the one who then puts us in Christ by his will and power.

BTW...this my new friend is not a parable now is it?

 

I DO NOT AGREE!!
God does not decide. God elected savation to all who, in freedom of will, call on Him, or will meet the conditions of the elected plan of salvation.

 

I DO NOT AGREE!!
God does not decide. God elected savation to all who, in freedom of will, call on Him, or will meet the conditions of the elected plan of salvation.

BTW... do not take a verse and interpret the rest of the Bible with it...

 

You see how small your God has become with your doctrine? Now would be a good time to read chapter 4 of Daniel.

You sound very young. I do not want to discourage you. It sounds like you have fallen for alot of Mans doctrine and not followed the Bible.

I'll leave you with one verse tonight....

Come back and we can talk about this more.....I'm off to bed.