Saved at birth? Part 2

[webdog]

How does it change the meaning?

What is your interpretation?

Of course you're disappointed in me. I'm a scripture twisting Calvinist, who used to be able to understand scripture.

...and taking on the attitude that goes along with it, I see :tear:

Just make sure you don't end up like npetreley (at least he can read my posts now, since he can't put me on ignore :laugh

 

[Amy.G]

...and taking on the attitude that goes along with it, I see :tear:

Just make sure you don't end up like npetreley (at least he can read my posts now, since he can't put me on ignore :laugh

You're the one who accused me of twisting scripture. Remarks like that don't promote a good attitude toward you.

And what is the difference between:
Those He foreknew, He predestined.
He predestined those He foreknew.

How did I twist the meaning?

You still haven't given me your interpretation of these verses.

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

 

[webdog]

You're the one who accused me of twisting scripture. Remarks like that don't promote a good attitude toward you.

...then Scripture shouldn't be twisted

And what is the difference between:
Those He foreknew, He predestined.
He predestined those He foreknew.

Are you serious! Quite a bit. Can something be predestined but not foreknown? Can something be foreknown and not predestined?

Those He foreknow He predestined to become sons of God. He didn't predestine whom He foreknew...He foreknew whom would be predestined to become molded in Christ's image.

 

[Amy.G]

...then Scripture shouldn't be twisted

Are you serious! Quite a bit. Can something be predestined but not foreknown? Can something be foreknown and not predestined?

In both sentences the object of the predestination is those who were foreknown.

Those He foreknow He predestined to become sons of God. He didn't predestine whom He foreknew...He foreknew whom would be predestined to become molded in Christ's image.

So, God knew beforehand who He would predestine.

 

[Allan]

You're the one who accused me of twisting scripture. Remarks like that don't promote a good attitude toward you.

And what is the difference between:
Those He foreknew, He predestined.
He predestined those He foreknew.

How did I twist the meaning?

You still haven't given me your interpretation of these verses.

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

It is a HUGE difference Amy. It is NOT interchangable.

If it were those whom He predestined He foreknow, then you have God determining FIRST who He will know so that he will know them. IOW - God creating a people specifically to be saved and then secondarily creating another people to be specifically for the purpose of being lost.

It is a form of double predestination that even the majority of mainline Calvinists will not accept.

What scripture sets forth is:
Those whom He foreknew, it was them He predetermined (they should be saved and therefore be in the likeness of His Son), (He then determined the means to save - Gospel) He called, (then the results of the message) He justified, (then the completion of His plan toward them He foreknew) He glorified.

God foreknew them before He predestined them.

 

[Allan]

So, God knew beforehand who He would predestine.

Is that or is that not what the scripture explicitly states.

 

[webdog]

Is that or is that not what the scripture explicitly states.

It's exactly what it says, and what I meant to Amy about it being a plain reading of Scripture.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

It is a HUGE difference Amy. It is NOT interchangable.

If it were those whom He predestined He foreknow, then you have God determining FIRST who He will know so that he will know them. IOW - God creating a people specifically to be saved and then secondarily creating another people to be specifically for the purpose of being lost.

It is a form of double predestination that even the majority of mainline Calvinists will not accept.

What scripture sets forth is:
Those whom He foreknew, it was them He predetermined (they should be saved and therefore be in the likeness of His Son), (He then determined the means to save - Gospel) He called, (then the results of the message) He justified, (then the completion of His plan toward them He foreknew) He glorified.

God foreknew them before He predestined them.

Allan, I posted my last response to you on this very topic in a new thread.
I'd like to see you address exactly what God's foreknowledge entails.
Webdog too, since both of you deny the "foreseen faith" avenue that is common amongst non-Calvinists.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello skypair,

I see you are making invalid comparisons again, Jarthur.

You can call me Double "0" 1 if you want.

First, born again where you have a choice is not the same as physical birth of which you have NO choice.

It seems you filled in the blanks. However you just turned things around when you did. I asked if man had a choice to be "in Adam". A yes or no will do. Web said YES we have a choice to be "IN ADAM.

And that is the "in Adam" part of the curse. We are mortal from birth -- not condemned from birth!

Yes..indeed it was IN ADAM. Was it our choice? This is what I asked ....and web said YES we have a choice to be "in Adam" the federal head of all of humanity . Why? I have no idea.

Second, regarding spiritual death, we all DO have a choice. A) We are not sinners at birth -- we are innocent according to go many criteria (where there is no law, there is no transgression -- the sins of the father do not pass to the children, Ezek 18:20 -- etc.)

The "no law...no sin" has been missed used so many times on here its not funny. Have you ever read the text? Maybe you shold and get back with us if you dare.

Mean time we must not forget this..

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

That just about sums it up.

B) When we sin, we choose to be sinners just as Adam did.

I have to agree with this. However, why are we all like Adam..or awww.."in Adam" and sin? If a person has the choice to be good...why do all men sin?

We follow his propensity to sin in this cursed world where there is neither security much less fulfillment of our needs.

What is in the world that is cursed that causes man to sin? Is it apples? Is it trees?

C) When we realize our condition (by conviction), we must choose to be saved.

Many many people...even most people never realize this condition. Are believers just smarter then non-believers? How high does ones IQ have to be, in order to be saved?
.

And so here's where we come upon Calvinists --- they, being regenerated already, don't believe they are lost anymore! And we can't get 'em lost, either. Guess what that means?

Once again you prove you have not a clue of Calvinism.

 

[Jarthur001]

Sinner is not a "race", it's a condition, so no, I'm not of Adam's "race" (I have no middle eastern decent in my blood).

"The soul that sins shall surely die"

The curse of sin has been placed on mankind (sin nature), but we pay for OUR sin, not Adam's!

What I asked....and have for the last 4 post is this....

What places us "in Adam"? What choice do we have?

 

[Jarthur001]

Sorry...me again. I hate to be a pain....but...

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:27-30,

Quote:
"28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:"

Its hard to overcome this passage...

Those who say that only Christ is the object of election, and that whoever comes into him becomes God's elect, this passage says,.... "It is because of him" – that is, because of God that you are in Christ Jesus. God is the one who decides who becomes "in Christ," and he is the one who then puts us in Christ by his will and power.


Divine election is a selection of PEOPLE for salvation.

Someone keeps overlooking this post.

Just a small reminder.

 

[PK]

You're the one who accused me of twisting scripture. Remarks like that don't promote a good attitude toward you.

And what is the difference between:
Those He foreknew, He predestined.
He predestined those He foreknew.

How did I twist the meaning?

You still haven't given me your interpretation of these verses.

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

God from the very beginning knew the end; would this then make Him responsible (because He elected by non-election) for every murder, every drunkered, every adulter and so on..? God Forbid!! Can we blame God with all of the wickedness in this world just because He did not elect some? The Bible does teach that God foreknows man's choices. Foreknowledge in election only refers to the sense that God knows who will accept or reject His salvation but it does not make Him responsible for man's choice. God could not be omniscience and not have foreknowledge. Man has a free will to accept or reject God. If only the elected get saved at his will then why would you need the power and conviction of the Holy Spirit? Just to fulfill scripture?

 

[Jarthur001]

God from the very beginning knew the end; would this then make Him responsible (because He elected by non-election) for every murder, every drunkered, every adulter and so on..? God Forbid!!

Who made Cain?
When did God 1st learn that Cain would kill?

 

[PK]

Sorry...me again. I hate to be a pain....but...



Someone keeps overlooking this post.

Just a small reminder.

sorry I missed it...
Election is not mechanical. It involves a God who is love and man who is morally responsible. It never is a violation of our human will. Election has two parts.
#1 - God elected a plan of salvation which He accomplished in Christ therefore we cannot glory. Man can either reject this plan or accept it.
#2 - God elected a people to make known His election plan of salvation in Christ.

 

[Jarthur001]

sorry I missed it...
Election is not mechanical. It involves a God who is love and man who is morally responsible. It never is a violation of our human will. Election has two parts.
#1 - God elected a plan of salvation which He accomplished in Christ therefore we cannot glory. Man can either reject this plan or accept it.
#2 - God elected a people to make known His election plan of salvation in Christ.

1st I disagree....but no need to go there now, for this would just go down a path taking us away from the subject at hand.

2nd....you failed to answer. You used the "ol in Christ" debate and I showed you from the Bible where this is wrong. This is what I would like you to address.

"28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:"

 

[PK]

1st I disagree....but no need to go there now, for this would just go down a path taking us away from the subject at hand.

2nd....you failed to answer. You used the "ol in Christ" debate and I showed you from the Bible where this is wrong. This is what I would like you to address.

That simple!

Not by works of righteousness which I have done but according to His mercy in sending Christ to the cross for whosoever will.

But of Him = Nothing that I could do it was His plan. He sent Christ for me. Do you use the Parables to interpret the Bible or the Bible to interpret the parables?

 

[Jarthur001]

That simple!

Not by works of righteousness which I have done but according to His mercy in sending Christ to the cross for whosoever will.

But of Him = Nothing that I could do it was His plan. He sent Christ for me. Do you use the Parables to interpret the Bible or the Bible to interpret the parables?

Then you agree..


Those who say that only Christ is the object of election, and that whoever comes into him becomes God's elect, this passage says,.... "It is because of him" – that is, because of God that you are in Christ Jesus. God is the one who decides who becomes "in Christ," and he is the one who then puts us in Christ by his will and power.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1: 30,

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:"

BTW...this my new friend is not a parable now is it?

 

[PK]

Then you agree..


Those who say that only Christ is the object of election, and that whoever comes into him becomes God's elect, this passage says,.... "It is because of him" – that is, because of God that you are in Christ Jesus. God is the one who decides who becomes "in Christ," and he is the one who then puts us in Christ by his will and power.



BTW...this my new friend is not a parable now is it?

I DO NOT AGREE!!
God does not decide. God elected savation to all who, in freedom of will, call on Him, or will meet the conditions of the elected plan of salvation.

 

[PK]

Then you agree..


Those who say that only Christ is the object of election, and that whoever comes into him becomes God's elect, this passage says,.... "It is because of him" – that is, because of God that you are in Christ Jesus. God is the one who decides who becomes "in Christ," and he is the one who then puts us in Christ by his will and power.



BTW...this my new friend is not a parable now is it?

I DO NOT AGREE!!
God does not decide. God elected savation to all who, in freedom of will, call on Him, or will meet the conditions of the elected plan of salvation.

BTW... do not take a verse and interpret the rest of the Bible with it...

 

[Jarthur001]

I DO NOT AGREE!!
God does not decide.

You see how small your God has become with your doctrine? Now would be a good time to read chapter 4 of Daniel.

God elected savation to all who, in freedom of will, call on Him, or will meet the conditions of the elected plan of salvation.

You sound very young. I do not want to discourage you. It sounds like you have fallen for alot of Mans doctrine and not followed the Bible.

I'll leave you with one verse tonight....

Isa 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Come back and we can talk about this more.....I'm off to bed.