Saved at birth? Part 2

[Dale-c]

--- I thought God ordained the works of Christ before the world began; meaning the work of the cross? "His workmanship" is consistant with the rest of the Bible meaning that there is nothing I can do to merit this salvation. This verse cannot mean that we "His Workmanship" was before ordained because we cannot walk in them. The work or death was for ordained.

I am not sure I understand what you mean?

I believe that everything has been foreordained.
Do you believe that God learned things?
Things that He did not know before?

 

[PK]

What is God saying in this verse was foreordained? The workmanship or the work of Christ? What did God foreordaine for us to follow or walk in? God did not chose me, he chose to make a way for me through His Son.

 

[Dale-c]

God did not chose me, he chose to make a way for me through His Son.

Do you have any biblical basis for that?

 

[PK]

The verse we are talking about will work. The emphasis for this verse is on the work of Christ that God started before the world began. It's not on the workmanship. I was not part of this workmanship until I made the decision to follow or trust the work of Christ on the cross.

 

[EdSutton]

The verse we are talking about will work. The emphasis for this verse is on the work of Christ that God started before the world began. It's not on the workmanship. I was not part of this workmanship until I made the decision to follow or trust the work of Christ on the cross.

Thought this looked like a new moniker.

Welcome to the BB.

Ed

 

[Dale-c]

I was not part of this workmanship until I made the decision to follow or trust the work of Christ on the cross.

So what makes you better than those that do not believe?
What made you choose and not the others?

 

[PK]

Nothing makes me better!
Seeing myself before a Holy Righteous God. The Law is the school master. I saw Christ in the scriptures.

The power is in the scripture. John 20:23 is a perfect example. If we preach the gospel, sins are remitted through it's power and the Holy Spirit. If we don't, they are retained. The power is in God's Word.

 

[Dale-c]

So why was the scriptures more powerful to you than it was for those that rejected the gospel?

 

[PK]

So why was the scriptures more powerful to you than it was for those that rejected the gospel?

It wasn't. The scriptures don't loose power and the Holy Spirit always works with the preached word. We just have the ability to accept or reject.

 

[Dale-c]

We just have the ability to accept or reject

So, what made the difference?
Why did you accept and others rejected?

 

[PK]

So, what made the difference?
Why did you accept and others rejected?

I already answered this question, you just refraised it.
Before you asked, "what made you chose and others not?"

Are you chasing your tail?

 

[Dale-c]

I already answered this question, you just refraised it.

No, you didn't answer it.
If two people hear the gospel at the same time, from the same background, why does one reject and the other does not?

I will give you a hint found in the Bible: it is because of God's drawing of the one. It is because of the regenerating power.

Otherwise the natural man would never recieve the things of God.
They are FOOLISHNESS to the natural man.

 

[PK]

No, you didn't answer it.
If two people hear the gospel at the same time, from the same background, why does one reject and the other does not?

I will give you a hint found in the Bible: it is because of God's drawing of the one. It is because of the regenerating power.

Otherwise the natural man would never recieve the things of God.
They are FOOLISHNESS to the natural man.

This is proof that man has the power to choose. (Both people) The power of the Gospel was the same for both. One decided and the other didn't. Remember John 20:23. The power is in the gospel, not the election.

 

[Dale-c]

This is proof that man has the power to choose. (Both people) The power of the Gospel was the same for both. One decided and the other didn't. Remember John 20:23. The power is in the gospel, not the election.

No, it isn't. Hvae you ever read the book of Romans?
Especially chapters 8 and 9?
How About Ephesians?

 

[Dale-c]

One decided and the other didn't.

Yes, but why did the one choose for and the other against?
You are not answering the question.
Remember that the Bible says that the natural man thinks the things of God are foolishness.

Why does one man think that God is foolish and the other repents?

 

[Amy.G]

Eph 1:3 Blessed {be} the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly {places} in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
Eph 1:8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
Eph 1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him



Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

We are new creatures in Christ, created by God "in" Christ, created spiritually by the new birth.

We do not create ourselves. We were created by God in the spiritual sense, being born again.

 

[PK]

Eph 1:3 Blessed {be} the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly {places} in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
Eph 1:8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
Eph 1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him



Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

We are new creatures in Christ, created by God "in" Christ, created spiritually by the new birth.

We do not create ourselves. We were created by God in the spiritual sense, being born again.

You guys are so hung up that you can't see it. Christ is Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world, right?
VS 3- says we get spiritual blessings, how, in Christ.
VS 4- says the we (Christians) are chosen, how, in Him. Christ was the one chosen here.
VS 5 - We are predestinated unto the adoption of children, how, by Jesus Christ. Once again He was the one that was predestined to make this adoption possible. How, I'm glad you asked... Eph 2:1-10. You guys seem to always leave out the first part of this chapter which has nothing to do with being elected.

 

[Jarthur001]

You guys are so hung up that you can't see it. Christ is Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world, right?
VS 3- says we get spiritual blessings, how, in Christ.
VS 4- says the we (Christians) are chosen, how, in Him. Christ was the one chosen here.
VS 5 - We are predestinated unto the adoption of children, how, by Jesus Christ. Once again He was the one that was predestined to make this adoption possible. How, I'm glad you asked... Eph 2:1-10. You guys seem to always leave out the first part of this chapter which has nothing to do with being elected.

Hello PK and welcome to the BB,

That God chose us "in him" cannot be construed to imply that we are the ones who place ourselves "in him" now can it?

Case in point...
We never chose to be in Adam, but he was still the federal head of all of humanity, and Paul tells us that all fell into sin and death in Adam.

And so, for the elect to be "in Christ" means only that Christ is the federal head of the elect, and not that each individual could of himself choose to be in Christ, and thus become one of the elect, nor that Christ himself was the object of election to salvation.

To say such a thing only removes the need for election. For if we follow the way you wish to read the English text as it deals with election, then election has no real meaning to us. I say English, for you have no ground in the Greek. In other words, if we are "in Christ" we need not be chosen...right?

But this is only the beginning of your failed reasoning.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:27-30,

"28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:"

Its hard to overcome this passage...

Those who say that only Christ is the object of election, and that whoever comes into him becomes God's elect, this passage says,.... "It is because of him" – that is, because of God that you are in Christ Jesus. God is the one who decides who becomes "in Christ," and he is the one who then puts us in Christ by his will and power.


Divine election is a selection of PEOPLE for salvation.


Depending on the context, expressions such as "in Christ," "in him," and "in whom" sometimes carry another meaning. Namely, they speak of Christ as the agent by which God accomplishes his plans and purposes. In other words...if you do not understand the meaning found here, one can change the "IN HIM" to "BY HIM" without hurting the context, for this is the real meaning. Please check your Greek.

So... Paul says that God "chose us in him," and that he "predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ." This is sufficient to refute the idea of collective election (that is, as a denial of the biblical doctrine of individual election for salvation), which is really a silly fantasy invented to subvert clear biblical teaching.

Also... we can make this point. When one looks at the works of an omniscient being, the idea of collective election as an attempt to deny individual election is absurd.

If one believes in omniscience, as every Christian must, then to acknowledge God's sovereignty over groups of people then one MUST also acknowledge God's sovereignty over individuals. This is because an omniscient being does not think of a group of anything without knowing every individual object that makes up the group.

So... salvation is of the PERSON, not a group.

 

[webdog]

No, it isn't. Hvae you ever read the book of Romans?
Especially chapters 8 and 9?
How About Ephesians?

Romans 8 and 9 should not be used to explain salvation of individuals.

Ephesians is good. Note how many times "in Christ" is used.

 

[Jarthur001]

Romans 8 and 9 should not be used to explain salvation of individuals.

Ephesians is good. Note how many times "in Christ" is used.

hello webdog,

You keep bringing this "in Christ" up....namely from Eph 1.

please tell me what is the point. Maybe I'm missing something. It is clear that placing "in Christ" in quotes means something to you. Please say how.

Are you saying we are not placed "in Christ" by Christ?