Saved at birth? Part 2

[webdog]

hello webdog,

You keep bringing this "in Christ" up....namely from Eph 1.

please tell me what is the point. Maybe I'm missing something. It is clear that placing "in Christ" in quotes means something to you. Please say how.

Are you saying we are not placed "in Christ" by Christ?

Correct. We are placed in Christ by faith.

 

[Jarthur001]

Correct. We are placed in Christ by faith.

How do you handle this verse?

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[TCGreek]

Romans 8 and 9 should not be used to explain salvation of individuals.

Ephesians is good. Note how many times "in Christ" is used.

Romans 1-6 is a great text on salvation and sanctification.

 

[webdog]

How do you handle this verse?

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

In the same way Adam died, all die (by sin) in the same way we share in Christ's death and resurrection (by faith).

If you are implying that all died spiritually by Adam's sin, the even so would also imply through Christ's resurrection, these same "all" live. That sounds like universalism to me.

 

[Jarthur001]

In the same way Adam died, all die (by sin) in the same way we share in Christ's death and resurrection (by faith).

If you are implying that all died spiritually by Adam's sin, the even so would also imply through Christ's resurrection, these same "all" live. That sounds like universalism to me.

I imply no such thing.

How are we in Adam?

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[webdog]

Highlight the "even so". If all died in Adam without doing anything...all live in Christ, too, without doing anything. That's universalism.

How are we in Adam?

I answered in post #44, right above yours.

 

[Jarthur001]

Highlight the "even so". If all died in Adam without doing anything...all live in Christ, too, without doing anything. That's universalism.

I answered in post #44, right above yours.

I see you are not following again.

Let me ask another way.

Did you chose to be "In Adam"?
Being that Adam was the federal head of all of humanity and Christ is the federal head of the elect and being also both are liken to each other in the verse below...

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Did you indeed chose to be "In Adam"?

 

[webdog]

Did you indeed chose to be "In Adam"?

Sin is willful. I willfully sinned. That sin put me "in Adam" (died spiritually) as far as that is concerned.

 

[Jarthur001]

Sin is willful. I willfully sinned. That sin put me "in Adam" (died spiritually) as far as that is concerned.

Are you saying you are not born into Adams race (sinner)? Are you saying one must sin 1st?

Then how do you handle this...?

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[PK]

No, it isn't. Hvae you ever read the book of Romans?
Especially chapters 8 and 9?
How About Ephesians?

Please use these verses and show me where it says that some are predestined to hell and some to heaven. These verses only talk about the fact that one day the saved or redeemed shall become just like the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 8:29
Predestined to what? 'to be conformed to the image of His Son'.
Ephesians 1
'the adoption of children' in the Greek is, uiothesia, The compound word, therefore, signifies 'son placing-the place of the son.'
Thus we have been predestinated to the place of the sons.

God by His foreknowledge has predestinated all who believe in the Lord Jesus to 'be conformed to the image of His Son'. Predestination is never to hell or to heaven; but always to special privilege in and with Christ.

Romans 9-11 was aimed at the Jews' national and religious conceit. It was to show that even though they were God's elect, their nation had been rejected by God and that now his elective purpose (To Spead The Gospel) included the Gentiles.

 

[Jarthur001]

Please use these verses and show me where it says that some are predestined to hell and some to heaven. These verses only talk about the fact that one day the saved or redeemed shall become just like the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 8:29
Predestined to what? 'to be conformed to the image of His Son'.
Ephesians 1
'the adoption of children' in the Greek is, uiothesia, The compound word, therefore, signifies 'son placing-the place of the son.'
Thus we have been predestinated to the place of the sons.

God by His foreknowledge has predestinated all who believe in the Lord Jesus to 'be conformed to the image of His Son'. Predestination is never to hell or to heaven; but always to special privilege in and with Christ.

Romans 9-11 was aimed at the Jews' national and religious conceit. It was to show that even though they were God's elect, their nation had been rejected by God and that now his elective purpose (To Spead The Gospel) included the Gentiles.

Hello PK,

What does it mean to be conformed to His Image?
Can a non-believer be conformed to His Image?

What does it me to be sons of God?
Can a non-believe have this son-ship?

What does foreknowledge mean to you?
Does God foreknow the non-believer?

 

[Amy.G]

Please use these verses and show me where it says that some are predestined to hell and some to heaven. These verses only talk about the fact that one day the saved or redeemed shall become just like the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 8:29
Predestined to what? 'to be conformed to the image of His Son'.

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

He predestined some to be conformed to the image of His Son. Who did He predestine? Those He foreknew. And those that He foreknew, He called, Justified and glorified.
He predestined them to be conformed to His Son's image, yes, but also He predestined them to be brethren of Christ, Who is the firstborn.

Ephesians 1
'the adoption of children' in the Greek is, uiothesia, The compound word, therefore, signifies 'son placing-the place of the son.'
Thus we have been predestinated to the place of the sons.

Yes.

Romans 9-11 was aimed at the Jews' national and religious conceit. It was to show that even though they were God's elect, their nation had been rejected by God and that now his elective purpose (To Spead The Gospel) included the Gentiles.

How does God elect a nation without electing individuals?

 

[Allan]

How does God elect a nation without electing individuals?

I only have a question regarding the above Amy.

So are you contending that everyone in that Nation was saved because the Nation was elect of God??

It appears from your question above that you are confusing the election to Gods purpose with that of salvation.

Gods election of Israel was not to salvation of that Nation (though there were those in that Nation who were saved - at times a great many and at times only a handful) but to Purpose regarding that Nation. That is what Romans 8 is about - NOT salvation - but Purpose. Not individuals but the Nation as a whole.

Are there saved in that Nation? Yes, but there are also those who are saved NOT in that Nation but in other Nations. Granted, not many but as I stated earlier and scripture declares it, there are many times in Israels History were very few were considered saved by the biblical view. Does that make those other Nations elect too because there were those who believed in it?? No, because God's election of the Nation Israel was not to salvation but Purpose.

 

[skypair]

If two people hear the gospel at the same time, from the same background, why does one reject and the other does not?

I will give you a hint found in the Bible: it is because of God's drawing of the one. It is because of the regenerating power.

Otherwise the natural man would never recieve the things of God.
They are FOOLISHNESS to the natural man.

1) Jesus compared salvation through Him with the healing of the children of Israel from snakebite (John 3). All who look upon the brazen serpent shall be healed.

Friend, they weren't regenerated in order to look. One was saved and the other not because one looked and the other didn't. It's that simple!

2) Regarding drawing -- the whole camp had snake bite. ALL knew about the brazen serpent meant to DRAW them to look and be healed. Same thing as "I will draw all men to Me." If you sin, you are drawn by God to Christ for healing. Whether you "look" or not is up to YOU! (See if you can go on LoveWorthFinding's website and order the sermon "The Cure for Snakebite" by Dr. Rogers. I think it will explain a lot that you don't understand.)

skypair

 

[skypair]

Did you chose to be "In Adam"?
Being that Adam was the federal head of all of humanity and Christ is the federal head of the elect and being also both are liken to each other in the verse below...

I see you are making invalid comparisons again, Jarthur.

First, born again where you have a choice is not the same as physical birth of which you have NO choice. And that is the "in Adam" part of the curse. We are mortal from birth -- not condemned from birth!

Second, regarding spiritual death, we all DO have a choice. A) We are not sinners at birth -- we are innocent according to go many criteria (where there is no law, there is no transgression -- the sins of the father do not pass to the children, Ezek 18:20 -- etc.)

B) When we sin, we choose to be sinners just as Adam did. We follow his propensity to sin in this cursed world where there is neither security much less fulfillment of our needs.

C) When we realize our condition (by conviction), we must choose to be saved. The problem is -- and we see this all the time when witnessing -- is that most don't believe they need to be saved. It's getting them "lost" that is usually the problem of them not understanding and converting. It's not getting them regenerated that makes the difference in their choice of Christ or not.

And so here's where we come upon Calvinists --- they, being regenerated already, don't believe they are lost anymore! And we can't get 'em lost, either. Guess what that means?

See, the conviction that the Holy Spirit clearly brings to the world (John 16:8-9) is NOT the revelation of one's "election" but of one's SIN. The Holy Spirit will not even let you glimpse the solution until you know problem first. And the problem is SIN and the solution, which EVERYONE is called upon to CHOOSE for him/herself is Christ.

Does that answer you question "why does one come and another not?"

skypair

 

[webdog]

Are you saying you are not born into Adams race (sinner)? Are you saying one must sin 1st?

Then how do you handle this...?

Sinner is not a "race", it's a condition, so no, I'm not of Adam's "race" (I have no middle eastern decent in my blood).

"The soul that sins shall surely die"

The curse of sin has been placed on mankind (sin nature), but we pay for OUR sin, not Adam's!

 

[webdog]

He predestined some to be conformed to the image of His Son. Who did He predestine? Those He foreknew. And those that He foreknew, He called, Justified and glorified.
He predestined them to be conformed to His Son's image, yes, but also He predestined them to be brethren of Christ, Who is the firstborn.

Amy, for someone who used to do such a good job of reading Scripture at face value, I have to admit I'm dissapointed in your butchering of that passage. Wow. That is twisting the text to say what you want it to say.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, for someone who used to do such a good job of reading Scripture at face value, I have to admit I'm dissapointed in your butchering of that passage. Wow. That is twisting the text to say what you want it to say.

I'm sorry you're so disappointed in me. Instead of criticizing me, why don't you give your interpretation of the verse and we can compare our different views.

 

[webdog]

I'm sorry you're so disappointed in me. Instead of criticizing me, why don't you give your interpretation of the verse and we can compare our different views.

Now you are even twisting what I say. I never once said I was disappointed in you.

Why did you change the order around of what the Scripture so clearly says? (Those He foreknew...He predestined...) You stated He predestined who He foreknew.

 

[Amy.G]

Now you are even twisting what I say. I never once said I was disappointed in you.

Why did you change the order around of what the Scripture so clearly says? (Those He foreknew...He predestined...) You stated He predestined who He foreknew.

How does it change the meaning?

What is your interpretation?

Of course you're disappointed in me. I'm a scripture twisting Calvinist, who used to be able to understand scripture.