Saved at birth? Part 2

[Jarthur001]

BTW... do not take a verse and interpret the rest of the Bible with it...

Sorry..this added after I posted.

This is good PK. Nor should you. BTW...nor do I. I point your error in the "in Christ" view of Eph 1. It would seem to me, you this is what has upset you.

Just promise me you will come back and talk about it.

later...


In Christ...James

 

[PK]

You see how small your God has become with your doctrine? Now would be a good time to read chapter 4 of Daniel.


You sound very young. I do not want to discourage you. It sounds like you have fallen for alot of Mans doctrine and not followed the Bible.

I'll leave you with one verse tonight....



Come back and we can talk about this more.....I'm off to bed.

Certainly someone as seasoned as you would understand that Isreal is God's elected people? Have you followed the Bible, or like Thomas Jefferson, only picked parts that you like?

Rest Well!

 

[webdog]

What I asked....and have for the last 4 post is this....

What places us "in Adam"? What choice do we have?

I ANSWERED IT ALREADY. If you don't like the answer, that's one thing, but do not be dishonest and say I did not answer. I even gave the post #.

 

[webdog]

PK, you are wasting your time. Jarthur only likes to debate to win, not to learn. His mind is made up and conscious seared.

 

[Jarthur001]

PK, you are wasting your time. Jarthur only likes to debate to win, not to learn. His mind is made up and conscious seared.

Indeed..

Its called Radical-Faith

for

I am resolved to follow the Savior, Faithful and true each day;
Heed what He sayeth, do what He willeth, He is the living Way.

in fact.....

A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

 

[Jarthur001]

Certainly someone as seasoned as you would understand that Isreal is God's elected people?

Indeed I do understand this. But did you over look the point? Go back and read the verse again and see why they were chosen. It does seem that God does decide a thing or two. OK..i'm not going to hit you over the head with your comment.."God does not decide".... for I think you typed without thinking. If not, we will keep pulling out the verses showing God is in full control of all things

Seasoned? Just a bit heavy on the salt and that can burn a cut in the skin..... you know.

Have you followed the Bible,

Yes... Statements like this lead me to say you are young. You have been programed to believe anyone that does not believe as you has no Bible support. Stick around and you will see many views backed by the Bible. I happen to believe Calvinism is the only system that brings all the verses together for a true picture of Gods message, plan and the gospel he has for mankind.

or like Thomas Jefferson,

Who is he? The tall guy that works at Walmart? I saw his picture more then just a few times, but I never met the man.

only picked parts that you like?

I address this before. I have given 4 reasons why your man made doctrine around "in him" cannot be construed as you have done to imply that we are the ones who place ourselves in him. I back this with now 3 verses. Also I have called for you to reason through the doctrine of omniscience, as every Christian must believe, or else we end with a very small God, for based on this reason we then acknowledge God's sovereignty in all things. This extends not to just groups of people, but also we must acknowledge God's sovereignty over individuals.

PK...once again...I do believe and hold to the whole Bible, therefore I am a Calvinist.

Rest Well!

I did...thanks.

I will be back late tonight. I have meetings all this week. Take care..

In Christ...James

 

[webdog]

Indeed..

Its called Radical-Faith

for

I am resolved to follow the Savior, Faithful and true each day;
Heed what He sayeth, do what He willeth, He is the living Way.

in fact.....

A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

...which makes debating or discussing anything with you a waste of time. I'm glad to think you have nothing left to learn. I pray I never get to that state here on earth.

 

[Jarthur001]

...which makes debating or discussing anything with you a waste of time.

ok

I'm glad to think you have nothing left to learn.

I never said that I have nothing to lean. I agree that I do not debate to lean. However, I do learn when I debate. But I learn more one on one with God.

Debating should never be your main, way to know God, for it is more about proving a point and to tell others how you understand the passage. At one time as you know I spent to much time on here. On some days it replaced my Bible reading time, and that is not good. I try to never have that happen again. I feel if I do not pray for at least a hour each day, I have failed God. Prayer means more to me then debating. Many a night I stay up til 2-3 in the morning studying the Bible, not debating.

I pray I never get to that state here on earth.

You should pray your not like me. Pray your more like God.

 

[Jarthur001]

I ANSWERED IT ALREADY. If you don't like the answer, that's one thing, but do not be dishonest and say I did not answer. I even gave the post #.

Yes I know. You said Man must sin to be "in Adam".

You also said man must sin to be a sinner.

I disagree with both. So does the Bible.

 

[PK]

You see how small your God has become with your doctrine? Now would be a good time to read chapter 4 of Daniel.


You sound very young. I do not want to discourage you. It sounds like you have fallen for alot of Mans doctrine and not followed the Bible.

I'll leave you with one verse tonight....



Come back and we can talk about this more.....I'm off to bed.

PLEASE notice at the end of the chapter that King Neb understands the sovereignty of God, Right. This is what you wanted to hear but notice how King Neb knew that he was walking in pride. (VS37) He is saying that I made decision to ignor God and He judged me because only he is truth and the only one who can judge. So we see both Sovereignty of God and free will of man right? I thought you would agree...
So, He can do as He wills, only in accord with His attributes like truth, holiness, righteousness, and love. God has placed some restrictions on himself. Such as to not violate the will of man (Gen. 3) and He does not act contrary to His own nature (Gen 18:25). So He is sovereign in that He can do that He wills and which is in accord with His nature. Man made in God's image has a free will.
If things are so "mechanical" as you say or think, then this would leave no room for real human responsibility or accountability, or ground for a final judgement, nor place for Holy Spirit conviction to respond to our Maker. Why would God, under these "elected" conditions plead with man to repent and "turn" to him, and why would he grieve over man not heeding His call?

 

[PK]

Sorry..this added after I posted.

This is good PK. Nor should you. BTW...nor do I. I point your error in the "in Christ" view of Eph 1. It would seem to me, you this is what has upset you.

Just promise me you will come back and talk about it.

later...


In Christ...James

Eph. 1

First we need to understand that he is talking to the saved and not the means of their salvation. Vs4 & 5 are also about the saved; noticed how Paul says "us" and it doesn't say "has chosen some"?
So, before the foundation of the world God chose (when I said last night that God doesn't choose, I was talking about individuals) that the believers (corporately), should be, or stand before Christ blameless. So the believer is also predestinated in Christ to receive an inheritance that was purchased by Christ.

It's just a lump in your throut, smallow and it will go away....This is fun!

 

[Jarthur001]

PLEASE notice at the end of the chapter that King Neb understands the sovereignty of God, Right. This is what you wanted to hear but notice how King Neb knew that he was walking in pride. (VS37) He is saying that I made decision to ignor God and He judged me because only he is truth and the only one who can judge. So we see both Sovereignty of God and free will of man right? I thought you would agree...

No i do not agree PK.
I would say it is Sovereignty of God and Mans responsibility. You cannot have 2 full wills in control PK. In the in one will overpower the other. We know God is in full control, so Gods will is free. Mans will is “bound”…limited. Yes he still is accountable for his actions.

So, He can do as He wills, only in accord with His attributes like truth, holiness, righteousness, and love.

I would not say only here. If God does it it is truth. If God does it it is holy. and on...

God has placed some restrictions on himself.

I understand what you mean PK, but I would never agree with this. This is putting God in a little box. Fact is, He can do anything at any time and would be just.

Such as to not violate the will of man (Gen. 3) and He does not act contrary to His own nature (Gen 18:25).

Going back to dan 4.....So Neb wanted to be crazy? Hold this thought I have a ton of verses to show you. This is only a quick note.

So He is sovereign in that He can do that He wills and which is in accord with His nature. Man made in God's image has a free will

.
So...he is in control...till man wants to be in control...and then He must stop? How small is your God?

If things are so "mechanical" as you say or think, then this would leave no room for real human responsibility or accountability, or ground for a final judgement, nor place for Holy Spirit conviction to respond to our Maker.

No..see above. I call it ...Gods "arena of play". More on this latter.

Why would God, under these "elected" conditions plead with man to repent and "turn" to him, and why would he grieve over man not heeding His call?

If this be your only hangup of election...stick around and we shall see.

 

[Jarthur001]

Eph. 1

First we need to understand that he is talking to the saved and not the means of their salvation. Vs4 & 5 are also about the saved; noticed how Paul says "us" and it doesn't say "has chosen some"?

US...the saved...the believers the writer addresses....are the elect PK.

So, before the foundation of the world God chose (when I said last night that God doesn't choose, I was talking about individuals) that the believers (corporately), should be, or stand before Christ blameless.

I address this already as well. Groups are made up of people and God knows the heart of every person PK. I asked before, did God know Cain would not believe? Yes...and then God made Cain just the way he was...and guess what...Cain did not believe. Now I know this is RAW and not backed...but this story can answer alot for you. Just think about it for a few days...and if need be we will break it down.

So the believer is also predestinated in Christ to receive an inheritance that was purchased by Christ.

Well...I do agree with this. I also know you think "in Christ" makes you right. "In Christ" means we are saved. so we can take what you said...

So the believer is also predestinated SAVED to receive an inheritance that was purchased by Christ.

It's just a lump in your throut, smallow and it will go away

Whatever do you mean PK?

....This is fun!

Indeed it is...

In Christ...James

 

[Amy.G]

Man made in God's image has a free will.

Just to throw out another thought in the discussion , only one man was made in God's image. That man was Adam. We are in Adam's image.

Adam was created good.
Gen 1:31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.


We are not good.
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Rom 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."



Do you think this fact has any bearing on our free will?

 

[webdog]

Just to throw out another thought in the discussion , only one man was made in God's image. That man was Adam. We are in Adam's image.

Where's the Scripture for that

Is it only sin to shed the blood of Adam?

Gen 9:6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.

 

[Amy.G]

Where's the Scripture for that

Is it only sin to shed the blood of Adam?

Gen 9:6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.

Go back and read my edit.

 

[webdog]

Go back and read my edit.

I did...and I still don't see where only Adam was made in God's image. I think Gen. 9 is clear that ALL mankind was made in God's image.

 

[Amy.G]

After the fall, we became like Adam. Before the fall, he was "good". After the fall, mankind became wicked. We are like Adam.

We are still in the image of God in the sense that we are moral creatures who have been given life by our creator, but we are now damaged, separated from our creator, unable to reconcile ourselves to Him. We are not good. We do not choose God.

You don't see the difference?

 

[webdog]

After the fall, we became like Adam. Before the fall, he was "good". After the fall, mankind became wicked. We are like Adam.

We are still in the image of God in the sense that we are moral creatures who have been given life by our creator, but we are now damaged, separated from our creator, unable to reconcile ourselves to Him. We are not good. We do not choose God.

You don't see the difference?

We became like Adam, in the same way Adam became like Adam...by sinning.

We are made in the image of God not in a sense, but in actuallity. Sin has put a death sentence on what has been deemed "good" (as in all creation), but that still does not take away from the fact we are free moral agents.
I agree we are not good...I don't agree we don't choose God. God has initiated our choosing Him, but it is still us that choose Him, or else He chooses Himself which defies all logic.

 

[Amy.G]

We became like Adam, in the same way Adam became like Adam...by sinning.

We are made in the image of God not in a sense, but in actuallity. Sin has put a death sentence on what has been deemed "good" (as in all creation), but that still does not take away from the fact we are free moral agents.
I agree we are not good...I don't agree we don't choose God. God has initiated our choosing Him, but it is still us that choose Him, or else He chooses Himself which defies all logic.

If no one seeks God, who is it that is choosing Him?