Saved by Grace not of works !

[savedbymercy]

bib

By faith works are produced, that is the "work OF faith" not that "work IS faith."

Faith is a work, the work of Faith. It is not works of Faith, but the work of Faith.

In the greek it is The Work The Faith:

tou ergou thv pistewv

Work is the genitive singular, not plural ! Faith as well is in the genitive singular, Paul is emphasizing Faith as work.

In the same fashion, love is a work, the Labour of Love

Even though you are misinterpreting and misapplying these texts,

No I am not, you are denying the truth of the text, Faith is a Law

Just because something is a duty does not mean you have the ability to do it!

Thats not even the issue, the issue is that Jesus says Faith is a work of the Law. And if you believe you are saved because you exercised Faith or because you believed, which is also a commandment, a Law 1 Jn 3:23 then you believe you are saved by your works, or your Law keeping, which is anti scriptural.

In fact, Paul writes Rom 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

That word deeds is the same word works as in Eph 2:9 ergon and means:

) business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act
, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasized in opp. to that which is less than work

Now, is faith "of grace" (Rom. 4:16) or has Paul told a lie here?

No Paul has not lied, I have not once said he did lie.

But all works of a believer are of Grace. Paul said that the Labour He did was OF Grace ! 1 Cor 15:10

10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

I never read anywhere where Paul states that he was saved because he did something. Because he believed, because he repented or whatever, a Person is not saved by what they do, but solely by what Christ did. If you say that you are saved because you believed, then you are saved by your work.

Even believing is of Grace Acts 18:27


27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

However, believing is still a commandment to be OBEYED 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

And the word believe here in the greek is emphasizing that first belief because it is in the aorist tense, whereas the to love one another is in the present tense, which denotes continous action , to be loving.

If John wanted to emphasize the continuing believing of a believer, he would have used the present tense as well as he did for love. So even your understanding of believe in 1 Jn 3:23 is off base !

I can show you numerous verses where the present tense is used for believe by John. Jn 3:16 The word believeth there is Present tense !

 

[The Biblicist]

But all works of a believer are of Grace.

Well it is nice for a change to have a complete response from you.

However, since you have proven that the works of a child of God are all "of grace" and we are "saved by grace" and thus salvation is "of grace" equally as "works" or "of grace." Then how do you define Romans 11:6?

Rom. 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It seems that you are saying the very reverse. That works are "of grace" equally as salvation is "of grace" because what is "of grace" is "of grace."

Hence, the reverse would be just as true would it not? If works can be "of grace" then why cannot Salvation be "of works" since "works" is "of grace"????

 

[savedbymercy]

Well it is nice for a change to have a complete response from you.

However, since you have proven that the works of a child of God are all "of grace" and we are "saved by grace" and thus salvation is "of grace" equally as "works" or "of grace." Then how do you define Romans 11:6?

Rom. 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It seems that you are saying the very reverse. That works are "of grace" equally as salvation is "of grace" because what is "of grace" is "of grace."

Hence, the reverse would be just as true would it not? If works can be "of grace" then why cannot Salvation be "of works" since "works" is "of grace"????

If you believe that one is saved because they believed, believing is work, something that man does, even if he does it by grace, then you believe a man is saved by works, or a good work which contradicts Titus 3:5

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Believing is a work of righteousness that man does. He believes with his heart Rom 10:9


9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Believe here is a verb, a action verb, thats a work ..

Also confess is a work, a verb.

If you believe that by doing any of these things, that is what saved you, that means you got saved by something you did, and that deny's salvation by grace.

You either are saved by Grace or Works take your pick Rom 11:6


6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It cannot be both..

 

[DHK]

The Catholic Church has never taught a doctrine of "works righteousness," that through good works one can earn salvation
and, in fact, has constantly condemned the notion that men can earn or merit salvation. Catholic soteriology (salvation theology) is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and says that it is only by God's grace--completely unmerited by works--that one is saved.

The Church teaches that it's God's grace from beginning to end which justifies, sanctifies, and saves us. As Paul explains in Philippians 2:13, "God is the one, who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work."

This is your error. The Catholic Catechism teaches clearly that Baptism = the new birth, without which one cannot be saved. Without the work of baptism the Catholic Church teaches there is no salvation. Clearly the RCC teaches a works-based salvation. It is not of grace but of works, according to the RCC.

 

[The Biblicist]

You either are saved by Grace or Works take your pick Rom 11:6


6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It cannot be both..

Then if it must be one or the other but not both then is "faith....by grace" or by works? If you say faith is of works then what does Paul mean when he says faith is "by grace"? Does "by grace" mean "by works"? And if it be "by grace" then is it "of works"?

Rom. 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

Then if it must be one or the other but not both then is "faith....by grace" or by works?

Faith is a work by Grace. One believes by Grace Acts 18:27

27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

If one says they are saved because they believed by Grace, then they are saying they are saved by works. Believing or Faith is man doing something, even if he does it by Grace.

The only way you can avoid this dilemma is to understand that only those saved already, believe ! If you do not believe that, then you are making believing a condition to get saved, then that's works..

I believe only a saved man believes in Christ. A Man who has been saved by the New Birth Titus 3:5


5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This renewing or regeneration is before Faith or believing, and to be regenerated and renewed by the Holy Ghost is to be saved, so only a regenerated saved person believes. Then believing is not a condition to get saved, but a evidence of being saved by regeneration !

If you say faith is of works then what does Paul mean when he says faith is "by grace"?

I already answered that several times. The Elect believe by Grace !

Does "by grace" mean "by works"?

Sure, when you make what you DO by Grace a condition to get saved !

You are not going to be able change the fact that believing is something man does, even if he does it by grace. Grace does not believe for man, but enables man to believe..

 

[savedbymercy]

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The False teaching that Faith or believing or anything man does is a requirement or condition to get saved gives man an occasion to boast, and so contradicts Eph 2:9

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Now listen to me, this is important, if God has offered Grace and Salvation to all without exception, which the bible never states, and the condition be faith and repentance, and some comply to those requirements and get saved, and others reject or neglect them and consequently perish, then Eph 2:9 becomes void, simply because all those who met the requirements or conditions and got saved, now have opportunity to boast over those who rejected or neglected the conditions.

After all, you had the same opportunity i had, but you blew it, and i did not, so they can boast ! Also this False concept and Teaching deprives the Cross Work of Christ as being the sole determiner as to who is saved and who perishes, the preaching of the cross and Him crucified has become second fidel to non effect, for it [ The Cross} saved no one in and of itself, man becomes his own saviour by what HE DID ! Christ's blood of His cross did not make the difference, but man's will did ! This describes salvation by works, and gives reason to boast !

 

[WestminsterMan]

This is your error. The Catholic Catechism teaches clearly that Baptism = the new birth, without which one cannot be saved. Without the work of baptism the Catholic Church teaches there is no salvation. Clearly the RCC teaches a works-based salvation. It is not of grace but of works, according to the RCC.

Au contraire! The RCC is all about grace. Everything is by the Grace of God. Read the EFCs like Augustine.

WM

 

[savedbymercy]

Salvation is by Grace not of works or what a man does !



Salvation is by Grace not of works or what a man does ! This states plainly the scripture Eph 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation is not of works, meaning not of or because of anything man does, PERIOD ! It's by the Grace of GOD ! Heb 2:9

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

All for whom Christ by the Grace of God tasted death for or in behalf of, are saved by His Death which includes His Resurrection Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Life or fruit comes out of His Death Jn 12:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

And so it's not of ourselves, and the Faith through which the Election are saved is the Faith of the Son of God, who Loved them and gave Himself for them Gal 2:20

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Its the Fruit of His Spirit Gal 5:22

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

And everyone Christ died for shall receive the Gift of the Spirit ! And so Faith, it cannot be of ourselves, it along with Salvation by Grace is the Gift of God. The Grace by which one is saved by was given to them in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9, and the Faith is of the Son of God, the Fruit of His Spirit by which they are born again ! So Christ is the Author of their Faith Heb 12:2

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

That word author means :

the chief leader, prince

a) of Christ

2) one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer

The greek word for author is made up of Two root words one of which is:archē and it means:

that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

This without a shadow of doubt states that Christ as the Author of our Faith is the active cause of it ! So Faith is not of ourselves ! He begins it, and He it is who increases it Lk 17:5

5And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. To increase means to add to, to give more, its an acknowledgment to the First source or cause !

 

[DHK]

Au contraire! The RCC is all about grace. Everything is by the Grace of God. Read the EFCs like Augustine.

WM

You quoted me and then disagreed with me. Did you understand what I said? There is no grace in baptism. It is a work. It is a step of obedience according to the command of Christ AFTER salvation. What does it DO for a person? It gets them wet, and that is all. It is purely symbolic in nature. It does not impart grace, as the RCC teaches. There is no grace in baptism. It is a work. And works do not save.

And yet the RCC equates baptism with the new birth. That is a heresy.

 

[Moriah]

Calvinists say ‘faith’ and ‘believing’ is works. However, believing is like drinking water. In addition, if it is a work, it is the work required. Moreover, what kind of work is drinking?
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 6:28-29. Jesus says that believing is the work God requires.

For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 1 Corinthians 12:13.

Calvinists say that the Holy Spirit caused them to believe without their knowing or wanting. However, we do not receive the Holy Spirit before Jesus saves us. We receive the Holy Spirit after we believe. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that we receive the Holy Spirit before we believe, nor does it say that we receive the Holy Spirit to cause us to believe.

Calvinists say we all hate God and are His enemy, and in this state of hate, God gives us the Holy Spirit to cause us to believe. However, we do not receive God's Spirit if we hate God! We receive God and Jesus' Spirit when we love God and obey. John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Calvinists say we have to do nothing, not even believe. That is not biblical. The bible clearly and plainly says that we have to believe. We have to obey.

We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him. Acts 5:32. God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey.

"Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Romans 10:11. Is trust a work?

"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Romans 10:13. Is calling a work?

Calvinists say we have to do nothing at all, not even believe. That is nonsensical, to say the least. We have to do that which God says to do!

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Matthew 5:6.

Is hunger and thirst a work? To hunger and to thirst is a condition of a person’s heart. If it is as Calvinists say, that our heart has nothing to do with whether or not we have salvation, then what does it matter if we hunger or thirst?


Paul tells us that we too can be hardened! How can we be hardened if our hearts are hard from the beginning? Hebrews 3:13, we are told to exhort one another daily lest any of you be hardened.

Calvinists say that none of us has the capability to believe and that we are totally depraved, if that is so, then why does the bible say God searches our hearts? What is God searching for if all are totally depraved? Why search any one’s heart if it is so dark and evil?

1 Chronicles 28:9 "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him.

Psalm 7:9 O righteous God, who searches minds and hearts, bring to an end the violence of the wicked and make the righteous secure.

Proverbs 20:27 The lamp of the LORD searches the spirit of a man; it searches out his inmost being.

John 4:23 yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us, see Acts 15:8. AGAIN, IF OUR HEARTS OUR ONLY EVIL, WHAT DID GOD SEE IN THEIR HEART THAT HE GAVE HIS SPIRIT TO THEM? WHAT DID GOD SEE IN THEIR HEART THAT HE ACCEPTED THEM?

Calvinists teach that all are totally depraved. Again, what is God searching us for if all are totally depraved anyways?

Jesus is our Sabbath rest. God does not save us by the works of the law. The Jews at one time had to be circumcised. The first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings---external regulations.
The Jews had to have religious festivals, New Moon celebrations, and Sabbath days. The Jews had the works of the law, even if they did not have faith, if they did the works of the law they had a relationship with God, they were God’s people.
Colossians 2:14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

When Christ came as high priest, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.


Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Galatians 3:23-25.
Even when those belonging to God could not work, they could not do any work on the Sabbath day, Jesus said it was UNLAWFUL to do evil on the Sabbath, and it is LAWFUL to do good on the Sabbath. See Luke 6:9.
God saves us now by faith only. It does not mean we do not have to be good! It does not mean we do not have to do right! Where do you get that stop cheating on your wife is a work?! Where do you get that repenting of stealing and to stop stealing is a work?!
Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near. THAT is the words of Jesus Christ. See Matthew 4:17.

 

[savedbymercy]

Salvation because of one's Faith is a Reward not Grace !


Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Now if one understands Heb 11:6 to be speaking of how Faith is something man does, diligently seeking God, and because man does that, God rewards that one with salvation or Eternal Life, then that one believes in salvation by works, by something man does, which makes God a debtor of salvation to those who did something to earn it, they pleased God ! They also believe that Salvation is a reward, and not a gift.

If a bank offers a reward for anyone providing information regarding someone who has robbed that bank, and you offer that information, then you did something to earn that reward, it was not a Gift given to you freely for no reason or cause.

Now scripture goes to say that God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

The word seek here is the greek verb ekzēteō:

to seek out, search for
to seek out, i.e. investigate, scrutinise
to seek out for one's self, beg, crave
to demand back, require

And it is in the present tense, its a continued action !

And it states that God is a rewarder of such. Now the word for rewarder is misthapodotēs:

one who pays wages, a rewarder

It means God gives them what they worked for, wages, something they earned, just like the one offering the information to the bank to nail the bank robber , was rewarded for what he did !

So those of you who use Heb 11:6 to mean that one is saved because of their Faith, their diligence in seeking God, then you teach salvation by works, by the diligent seeking of man, and not by the Free Grace of God, you teach a false Gospel, one that has God rewarding them, paying them wages, a debt ! This totally contradicts Rom 4:4

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

The bible is Plain that salvation is by Grace through Faith and that not of ourselves, it is the Gift of God, not a reward. NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast !

 

[DHK]

The bible is Plain that salvation is by Grace through Faith and that not of ourselves, it is the Gift of God, not a reward. NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast !

That is not what the verse means. Break it down:

(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What is the primary subject and verb here?
--"you are saved." Everything revolves around that simple statement.

You are saved.
How? You are saved "by grace"
By what means? You are saved "through faith."
You are not saved of yourselves.
Salvation is the gift of God.
Salvation is not of works, so that no man can boast of it.

In no way does this verse teach that faith is a gift of God; rather it teaches that salvation is the gift of God.

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

That is not what the verse means.

If you believe a person is saved because of their faith, thats a reward, not of Grace.

Heb 11:6

6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

That word is rewarder means:

one who pays wages, a rewarder

You believe God paid you wages because of your Faith. That is contrary to scripture ! Rom 11:6

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Rom 4:4

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt

 

[Moriah]

Jesus is our Sabbath rest. It was against the law to work on the Sabbath. It was NOT against the law to do good on the Sabbath, it is against the law to sin on the Sabbath.

We are saved by faith, and not of by works, do you not see how Jesus is our Sabbath rest, and how the Sabbath is a shadow of the things that were to come, Jesus Christ. However, we repent of our sins when we are saved; repenting of sins is not a work! Again, it was NOT unlawful to do good on the Sabbath, but it was WRONG to sin on the Sabbath.

When someone tells you that you are saved by faith and not by works, that means we are not saved by circumcision; or eating or drinking certain food; or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day; various ceremonial washings--external regulations, or by sin offerings. God nailed those things to the cross. We do not have to do those things to be saved. However, not all of the Old Testament laws were things we no longer have to obey.

 

[DHK]

dhk
If you believe a person is saved because of their faith, thats a reward, not of Grace.

Wrong.

Rom 4:4

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt

Wrong again. Let's look at the text.

Romans 4:3-5 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--Righteousness was imputed to Abraham because of faith (belief). On the basis of his faith he was counted righteous before God. That was the only basis--faith.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
--To him that works is the reward, not of grace but of debt. There is not a hint of faith here. It is work in contrast to faith. When you work at your occupation you look forward for your wage at the end of the month. You don't look for a gift from the employer. You want what you deserve--what you worked for--your wage. Works deserve a reward. Labor deserves a wage, a reward. It is not grace, a gift, but rather a wage or reward.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--To him that works not but simply believes or has faith on Christ, the One that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Faith is not a work. Faith does not work. To him that does absolutely no work, but simply believes or has faith, that is the one that God justifies! Faith is not a work. Paul explains this very carefully.

 

[Moriah]

James 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

[Moriah]

It is not a work to obey God. When someone tells you that you are saved by faith and not by works, that means we are not saved by circumcision; or eating or drinking certain food; or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day; various ceremonial washings--external regulations, or by sin offerings. God nailed those things to the cross. We do not have to do those things to be saved. However, we do have to do the things Jesus teaches.

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

Wrong.

It's not wrong, I proved it in post 74

 

[DHK]

dhk

It's not wrong, I proved it in post 74

The only thing proved in post 74 is a very good demonstration of taking Scripture out of context and twisting the meaning to make it mean something it doesn't mean.

I have never seen such a distortion of Romans 4:4 in my life. You claim it says the opposite of what the verse actually teaches, not bothering to give the context so the reader can actually see that you are twisting and wrenching the verse so badly that it is saying the direct opposite of what you claim.

Psalm 14:1. "There is no god."
This is what you are doing in Romans 4:4. You are making it say the opposite of what it teaches. BTW. Psalm 14:1 does say "there is no god." You do believe that don't you?