Saved, Lost, Saved Again.

[steaver]

eloidalmanutha:
died as in dead, fini, no more, buried in a grave, etc. how do I know their heart? a desire to burn in hell stated specifically. is that good enough for you?

Sure is!

I thought you were speaking spiritually when you said "[they died]". Sorry.

Now if they said they desired to burn in hell, but you witnessed them at one time committed to the Lord prior to this, could it be possible that they could have been those who Jesus speaks of in Matt 7? (those who say Lord Lord but were just pretenders, never born again)

Remember that Judas was a committed disciple, as far as the other disciples could observe, yet Jesus called him a devil.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Rom 9:18 So, then, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens.
19 You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
20 Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Isa. 29:16
21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the one lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor? Jer. 18:6
22 But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction,
23 and that He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory,
24 whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also out of nations.

You know that calvinist quote this passage as support for their view that man has no choice in the matter of salvation. It does appear to say this is so. You are not a calvinist are you? Quoting this passage in our discussion makes it sound like you believe man has no choice in the matter. What do you see this passage as teaching us concerning what we are deliberating here?

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Rom 9:18 So, then, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens.
19 You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
20 Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Isa. 29:16
21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the one lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor? Jer. 18:6
22 But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction,
23 and that He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory,
24 whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also out of nations.

You know that calvinist quote this passage as support for their view that man has no choice in the matter of salvation. It does appear to say this is so. You are not a calvinist are you? Quoting this passage in our discussion makes it sound like you believe man has no choice in the matter. What do you see this passage as teaching us concerning what we are deliberating here?

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]man has a will - but God is bigger and smarter
we are but dust - He is the Creator.

I think the passage is quite clear - God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Jesus said He would not lose the ones that His Father gave to Him. Jesus also said that believers would fall away and that even the elect were in danger of falling away as well. You can't fall from nothing. If you are an unbeliever, you cannot fall from the Truth, if you never had it.

In the end, God says that man will not have an excuse. So which is it? Man's will or God's will?

When we get to heaven, I am sure we will be very surprised to see who is there, and who is not there. And that is my final answer

 

[steaver]

Well farewell brother

But it is very obvious that you consistently want to teach it both ways...

elo...

Jesus said He would not lose the ones that His Father gave to Him. Jesus also said that believers would fall away

It looks like you have interpreted that both points of view are correct. Yes, Jesus will save you and keep you saved and Yes, Jesus will save you and may not keep you saved.

But you don't see the confusion within your own points of view. Oh well.

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
Well farewell brother

But it is very obvious that you consistently want to teach it both ways...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />elo...

Jesus said He would not lose the ones that His Father gave to Him. Jesus also said that believers would fall away

It looks like you have interpreted that both points of view are correct. Yes, Jesus will save you and keep you saved and Yes, Jesus will save you and may not keep you saved.

But you don't see the confusion within your own points of view. Oh well.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]]

wow - I think you finally got it!!! cool

 

[steaver]

wow - I think you finally got it!!! cool

I thought soo Unfortunately there are alot who make and teach the same error out there Nice chattin with ya! God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

The error is trying to pin God down, when it is obvious there are some definite variables - which is SO like God

There are scriptures like John 17 that says Jesus will not lose any that the Father has given Him. But Jesus also taught that there are some who BELIEVE, but the Word is stolen, or they give it up, or are distracted AWAY. So it is not my confusion, when God choses whom and how long He will contend with someone or not.

Personally, I prefer to tell people that we must contend for the faith, run the race, strive for truth, not walk in deception, and make sure of our election. This is Biblical.

Christians are far too lethargic and play the grace card as a trump, when they should be in fear and awe of God - as Paul says don't be cocky, because God can and will cut off the branches.

So you may call me wishy-washy - I have been called much worse

 

[Brother James]

Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Elo...

God's will continue to offer the gift of salvation until Jesus' return.

Sorry, but it does not say " the offer of gifts and callings of God are without repentance". If it did I would have no place in asking you to answer! Your answer does not fit the verse. Cute spin though!

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]God offers it - we have to accept or reject unless of course you are an universalist </font>[/QUOTE]Listen to this person. This is the ultimate end of Arminianism and Pelagianism.

 

[steaver]

elo...

The error is trying to pin God down, when it is obvious there are some definite variables - which is SO like God

It has nothing to do with "pinning God down". We are commanded to "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth".( 2Tim 2:15)

elo...

There are scriptures like John 17 that says Jesus will not lose any that the Father has given Him. But Jesus also taught that there are some who BELIEVE, but the Word is stolen, or they give it up, or are distracted AWAY. So it is not my confusion, when God choses whom and how long He will contend with someone or not.

With study one can clarify "BELIEVE" within each passage it is used and rightly divide the truth it presents. Jesus does this many times as He teaches.

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free".(John 8:31-32)

These Jews "believed for awhile" but never made it to the freedom offered through the rebirth.

The only ones born-again/saved in the parable of the four soils is those who Jesus speaks of...

"But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience".(Luke 8:15)

It is a matter of study and rightly dividing the word of truth. "Believe" must be clarified in context. A study of regeneration will clarify the passages that cause confusion among those who fail to see any difference.

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />elo...

The error is trying to pin God down, when it is obvious there are some definite variables - which is SO like God

It has nothing to do with "pinning God down". We are commanded to "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth".( 2Tim 2:15)

elo...

There are scriptures like John 17 that says Jesus will not lose any that the Father has given Him. But Jesus also taught that there are some who BELIEVE, but the Word is stolen, or they give it up, or are distracted AWAY. So it is not my confusion, when God choses whom and how long He will contend with someone or not.

With study one can clarify "BELIEVE" within each passage it is used and rightly divide the truth it presents. Jesus does this many times as He teaches.

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free".(John 8:31-32)

These Jews "believed for awhile" but never made it to the freedom offered through the rebirth.

The only ones born-again/saved in the parable of the four soils is those who Jesus speaks of...

"But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience".(Luke 8:15)

It is a matter of study and rightly dividing the word of truth. "Believe" must be clarified in context. A study of regeneration will clarify the passages that cause confusion among those who fail to see any difference.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]whoa - you've got some major stuff going on here.

Let's look at

Luke 8:13 And those on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a time, and in time of trial draw back.

Jesus says that they "BELIEVE for a time", and then draw back. Are you saying that He is wrong?

John 8 - Does Jesus say they were not regenerated? and where? He refers to them as His disciples and is instructing them to stay in the Word.

By the way - you are making the salvation of the Jews at that time questionable because you place their salvation on the actual death of Jesus. This is fallacy. Those who believed on Him as Messiah before His actual death are as saved as those who believed on Him after His death and resurrection.

The OT believers were just as saved, also, because they believed/had faith. Read Heb 11.

So now I am a better understanding of where you are coming from. You don't believe anyone was saved until Jesus actually died.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[steaver]

elo...

Luke 8:13 And those on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a time, and in time of trial draw back.

Jesus says that they "BELIEVE for a time", and then draw back. Are you saying that He is wrong?

As I already said, you do not understand the difference surrounding the context of "believe". I cannot make you see, you have already concluded it to mean "saved/born-again" in your own mind. (a key tip in Jesus' word is "these have no root")

John 8 - Does Jesus say they were not regenerated? and where? He refers to them as His disciples and is instructing them to stay in the Word.

Regeneration is the Spirit of God entering into the spirit of man bringing a new creature to life. This is a new thing God has implemented post ressurrection. Jesus teaches of this rebirth/salvation to come. Nicodemus should have known it was coming. It is the New Covenant which is better than the Old because it is secured by God Himself through regeneration.

elo...

By the way - you are making the salvation of the Jews at that time questionable because you place their salvation on the actual death of Jesus. This is fallacy.

The Jews made the mistake of believing they were "saved" by election alone. Their salvation, as all's, depended on the death, burial and ressurrection of Jesus Christ, just as much as any Christian today. In fact without it nobody is saved. Jesus told them this, it is written in the OT, yet they ignored Him.

elo...

Those who believed on Him as Messiah before His actual death are as saved as those who believed on Him after His death and resurrection.

Hey, we agree! But before His death and ressurrection there is no regeneration.

elo...

The OT believers were just as saved, also, because they believed/had faith. Read Heb 11.

Yes, they were saved by faith. No, they did not have regeneration until after the ressurrection. All need regeneration. Those who place genuine faith in the one true God as revealed throughout time would receive regeneration-future. The OT believers looked forward to it and now have it. Those post ressurrection HAVE IT NOW and look back on their moment of birth from above. All who have been regenerated ARE SAVED FOREVER! As I said, you must understand "born-again" in order to understand "believes".

elo...

So now I am a better understanding of where you are coming from. You don't believe anyone was saved until Jesus actually died.

Unfortunately you have no understanding of where I am coming from. Some will, and some will not until later.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

And this has what to do with what?

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

ahhh - now I understand. I had no idea . . .
well, ya learn something new everyday

do you mind telling me what "denomination" [for lack of a better word] you are? that would probably help get a handle on where you are coming from.

thanx

 

[steaver]

elo...

do you mind telling me what "denomination" [for lack of a better word] you are? that would probably help get a handle on where you are coming from.

Brother elo, it matters not what denomination. The scriptures declare that regeneration is not had until post ressurrection. You simply need to get a handle on the scriptures, not me, and rightly divide them. You can point out a declaration of mine above and show me with scripture why you believe I am wrong.

I have never joined a denomination. I have attended several and have spent most of my time in a CM&A, seven years. I call myself a Christian (as defined in scripture)

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />elo...

do you mind telling me what "denomination" [for lack of a better word] you are? that would probably help get a handle on where you are coming from.

Brother elo, it matters not what denomination. The scriptures declare that regeneration is not had until post ressurrection. You simply need to get a handle on the scriptures, not me, and rightly divide them. You can point out a declaration of mine above and show me with scripture why you believe I am wrong.

I have never joined a denomination. I have attended several and have spent most of my time in a CM&A, seven years. I call myself a Christian (as defined in scripture)

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]I don't know what CM&A is. I have taken many theology courses and have studied the Word indepth. I was raised calvinistic [no longer] as well and I have never heard this "doctrine". It would be helpful if you could give me some background as to how you arrived at your conclusions.

Thanx . . .

 

[steaver]

I'm sorry, it is C&MA and is the Christian and Missionary Alliance.

Not sure what background you are looking for. Do you mean Scripture?

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
I'm sorry, it is C&MA and is the Christian and Missionary Alliance.

Not sure what background you are looking for. Do you mean Scripture?

God Bless!

thanx for the info, I am somewhat familiar with C&MA, although their affiliation with pentecostal and four square denominations would be considered tenuous - just making a personal observation.

As far as the regeneration theory, I do not believe that scripture proves that those saved before the cross are not equally saved as those after.

My reasoning is four-fold:

one, that Jesus forgave sin before He was crucified.

two, Rev says that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.

three, there is the thief who was in Paradise with Jesus upon His death, Elijah and Moses who appeared to Jesus pre-cross from Heaven.

four, Paul stated that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord. We know that OT believers are in Heaven, not having received the in-dwelt spirit [Enoch and Elijah would be excellent examples]. Rev also states that there are saints in Heaven already, and these I believe would be OT saints as well.

I do not believe that pre-cross salvations need to be "regenerated" or born again. The concept of regeneration is to change one from being obedient to the flesh to being Spirit led. I do not find in the Word that regeneration is spoken of for pre-cross salvations. I am not sure when you think that happened? If you use the 2 Peter 3 text to support this, I do not believe that is correct application.

From the gist of your comments, I am thinking that you have a different concept of salvation than that of main stream christianity. Eph states that we are saved by grace and faith. Regeneration is a process, like righteousness - so I don't equate that with the act of being born again. Regeneration to me, would be renewal and transformation that comes with study of the Word and continual communication with God, as the Holy Spirit completes His work in us. Being born again is an instantaneous work of the Holy Spirit upon belief in Jesus as Savior from sin.

 

[steaver]

elo...

My reasoning is four-fold:

one, that Jesus forgave sin before He was crucified.

Yes He did. So why did He bother to die on a cross?

two, Rev says that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.

Yes it does. So why did Jesus come and die on a cross?

three, there is the thief who was in Paradise with Jesus upon His death, Elijah and Moses who appeared to Jesus pre-cross from Heaven.

Check your bible again to see if Elijah and Moses came from Heaven.

four, Paul stated that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord. We know that OT believers are in Heaven, not having received the in-dwelt spirit [Enoch and Elijah would be excellent examples]. Rev also states that there are saints in Heaven already, and these I believe would be OT saints as well.

Here you mix OT examples with NT examples.

" Paul stated that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord ." ...This is post cross teaching and is true.

" We know that OT believers are in Heaven, not having received the in-dwelt spirit [Enoch and Elijah would be excellent examples]." ...They are now because they have received the in-dwelt Spirit after the cross. Again, check your bible to see if Enoch and Elijah went to heaven pre-cross.

" Rev also states that there are saints in Heaven already, and these I believe would be OT saints as well ."...There are now after the cross.

I must go for now but I will finish addressing your last two comments when I get the time, should be this evening.

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />elo...

My reasoning is four-fold:

one, that Jesus forgave sin before He was crucified.

Yes He did. So why did He bother to die on a cross?

two, Rev says that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.

Yes it does. So why did Jesus come and die on a cross?

three, there is the thief who was in Paradise with Jesus upon His death, Elijah and Moses who appeared to Jesus pre-cross from Heaven.

Check your bible again to see if Elijah and Moses came from Heaven.

four, Paul stated that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord. We know that OT believers are in Heaven, not having received the in-dwelt spirit [Enoch and Elijah would be excellent examples]. Rev also states that there are saints in Heaven already, and these I believe would be OT saints as well.

Here you mix OT examples with NT examples.

" Paul stated that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord ." ...This is post cross teaching and is true.

" We know that OT believers are in Heaven, not having received the in-dwelt spirit [Enoch and Elijah would be excellent examples]." ...They are now because they have received the in-dwelt Spirit after the cross. Again, check your bible to see if Enoch and Elijah went to heaven pre-cross.

" Rev also states that there are saints in Heaven already, and these I believe would be OT saints as well ."...There are now after the cross.

I must go for now but I will finish addressing your last two comments when I get the time, should be this evening.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus forgave sin before the cross, because He is God. His death on the cross was accomplished in God's timetable from eternity regardless of when it physically happened. Same with the Rev verse. It only confirms the eternal existence of Jesus as God. God's time is not ours. He "sees" the end from the beginning. Often, His prophetic statements in the OT, are made in the present tense.

This can also be applied to the death of OT saints. They went to Heaven to be with the Lord, they will accompany Jesus when He returns.


2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him .

Heb 11:5 By faith "Enoch" was translated so as not to see death, and "was not found, because God translated him." For before his translation, he had obtained witness to have been pleasing to God. Gen. 5:24

Ecc 12:5 also they shall be afraid of a high place, and terrors in the way; and the almond tree shall blossom, and the locust makes himself a burden; and desire breaks, because man goes to his eternal home, and the mourners go about in the street;
6 while the silver cord is not yet loosed, or the golden bowl is crushed, or the pitcher is shattered at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern;
7 then the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

 

[steaver]

elo...

Jesus forgave sin before the cross, because He is God. His death on the cross was accomplished in God's timetable from eternity regardless of when it physically happened. Same with the Rev verse. It only confirms the eternal existence of Jesus as God. God's time is not ours. He "sees" the end from the beginning. Often, His prophetic statements in the OT, are made in the present tense.

And this answers my question how Here it is again...So why did Jesus come and die on a cross?

elo...

This can also be applied to the death of OT saints. They went to Heaven to be with the Lord, they will accompany Jesus when He returns.

Are you not aware that the bible reveals that there are three heavens?

1) The atmospheric heavens include the high clouds and the sky of our atmosphere. This is revealed in Genesis and Psalms....

" And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day ". (Gen 1:8)

"The clouds poured out water: the skies sent out a sound: thine arrows also went abroad. The voice of thy thunder was in the heaven : the lightnings lightened the world: the earth trembled and shook".(Psalms 77:17-18)

2) The second heaven involves outer space beyond our atmosphere and holds the galaxies visible with great teleoscopes...

"And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars , if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be".(Gen 15:5)

3) The third heaven is the heaven where the throne of God exist beyond the heavens of the clouds and stars...

" How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer , son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: ; I will be like the most High".(Is 14:12-14)

"He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens , that he might fill all things.)"(Eph 4:10)

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven : and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne .
Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Rev 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven ."(2Cor 12:2)

Now that we have studied and have rightly divided the word of truth we can deal with Elijah...

2Ki 2:11 "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. "

Which heaven is being spoken of here? What do we know concerning the third heaven? The word of God reveals through Jesus Christ Himself this...

" And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven ".(John 3:13)

...this absolutely kills any possibility that Elijah went to the third heaven were God sits on His throne. So what does this leave? The translation "heaven" is derived from the Hebrew "shamayim". Strong's Concordance puts it this way...

"dual of an unused sing. shameh; from an unused root mean. to be lofty ; the sky (as aloft ; the dual perh. alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve); translations include air, +astrologer, heaven(-s)"

Elijah was taken aloft by a whirlwind up through the air into the sky (heaven). Unless you wish to call Jesus a liar this is your only option.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him .

Heb 11:5 By faith "Enoch" was translated so as not to see death, and "was not found, because God translated him." For before his translation, he had obtained witness to have been pleasing to God. Gen. 5:24

Say nothing about heaven.

Ecc 12:5 also they shall be afraid of a high place, and terrors in the way; and the almond tree shall blossom, and the locust makes himself a burden; and desire breaks, because man goes to his eternal home, and the mourners go about in the street;
6 while the silver cord is not yet loosed, or the golden bowl is crushed, or the pitcher is shattered at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern;
7 then the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

Again nothing about heaven. All spirits will return to God, but not all will enter His third heaven. This passage gives no time line either. We know that all will be ressurected and stand before God one day. But many will be led to the lake of fire.

Lastly, did you check you bible again and see if Elijah and Moses came down from heaven at the transfiguration?

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

you forgot the rest of the definition of "shamayim". Strong's also says this hebrew word means the abode of God.

I see that your perception of Scripture is far different than mine, off the beaten path so to speak - in other words, you are undermining God's Word - so I think it's time to let it go.

I do not believe that you have been honest with me - but some day I will discover under what "venue" you are getting your teachings from because they hint of agenda.

shalom . . .