Saved, Lost, Saved Again.

Wow! I present full scripture (God's Word) and you call it "off the beaten path...undermining God's Word".

I present full scripture studied and rightly divided and you call me a liar.

It appears it is "time for you to let it go" because you have no rebutal for the word of God itself. You cannot show where my exposition is in error.

And I thought I made it clear that the scripture reveals that the translation "heaven" has a three fold definition, so yes the "abode of God" is one of them, but one must let scripture interpret scripture to understand which heaven is in view when spoken of in each passage.

To summarize my prior post it is. Elo says that Elijah went to heaven (the abode of God) and Jesus says...." And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven ".(John 3:13) which is clearly the "abode of God".

You know, humbleness and a willingness to see an error in postion is far more pleasing to God and fruitful for us than calling another a liar, ignoring the facts, and cutting to run.

Have it your way. I have presented evidence for what I believe is truth, hundreds have probably read it and maybe some will look into it more carefully to make sure they are teaching the correct doctrine concerning heaven. I am just a preacher, take it or leave it.

It was a pleasure discussing this with you brother. I am sure many will benefit from all that was said. Take care!

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]I said you were being less than honest with me - in regard to your teachings - as Solomon said - there is nothing new under the sun, so I will run across them somewhere in God's timing

I believe it is necessary to explain my position, so perhaps our dialogue will continue for a bit. Just when I think I am done, God continues to work on me, so onwards, for the momento

I am sure you will find "holes". My understanding of God's Word is open ended upon His direction. I have heard bits and pieces of your rendering, and I find no confirmation in God's Word, so I cannot "go there". It is not that I am not open, but rather that your position cannot be supported Bibically. I realize that you think the same of me. As I have said before - God has the "final answer"

Jesus told the story of Lazurus and the rich man. Lazurus ended up in Paradise, which is Heaven, according to Paul [2 Cor 12] - that was pre-cross. It appears they had both had some kind of form that the rich man would recognize Lazurus, but I do not believe it was the incorruptable form of which Paul speaks [2 Cor 5].

1 Cor 15:50 And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 ¶ Behold, I speak a mystery to you: we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed.
52 In a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet; for a trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Another term for Paradise is Abraham's bosom - so there is no doubt in my mind that both Elijah and Enoch were translated into Heaven. Although we are not told how God did this, perhaps He will show us in the age to come. I believe that their physical bodies did not go to Heaven as God says that no man has seen Him and lived [flesh body], nor can a corruptable body enter Heaven - but I do know that they did not ascend - only Jesus has ascended - There are examples of others who also entered Heaven in Spirit [OT] - Daniel, Isaiah, and Ezekiel.

I understand, fully, that you may believe that "Paradise" changed somehow and Paul's reference to Paradise as Heaven is a post-cross meaning. However; the Bible just does not give us specifics, so to pin down theology is impossible. You will find views all across the board on this subject, which is why I don't really find it advantageous to keep poking at it It is really way down the list in importance to one's walk with God

Continuing, I also noticed that in Acts 2:34 it says that David is not present tense - ascended into Heaven - so where does that leave your theory? To my way of thinking, this statement confirms my position, that "no man ascending into Heaven" refers to the process by which Jesus ascended - in an incorruptable body which we will be changed into upon His return. This is why Jesus says that no man has ascended into Heaven accept Him - and even Paul was not sure in what form he was in Heaven.

again - the 1 Cor 15 verse interprets this phrase:
15:And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God.

My personal view of the 3rd Heaven is that it is the abode of God. The first Heaven is the earth's atmosphere based on Gen 1 and the 2nd Heaven would be what we call "outer space" or our universe [firmaments/heavens Gen 1]. Again - that is my opinion.

My support would be the flood, because the water came down from the "heavens" plural - which tells me that it was an unusual and encompassing rainfall. The water also came up from the earth. Perhaps, as some scientists have surmised, the rainfall at that time was unlike any that has ever been - coming from the outer atmostphere as well [2nd Heaven or firmament], and changed the environment here radically [downsized]. In order for the whole earth to be covered in water, it had to come from other than just the earth's atmosphere, in my opinion.

Gen 7:11 ¶ In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, in this day all the fountains of the great deep were risen, and the windows of the heavens were opened up.
12 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.


I am curious, however - exactly where you think Enoch and Elijah went? why would God call their "departure" something out of the ordinary - and why would Paul say that Enoch was "translated" [defined as passing over in Strong's] or as in Acts when the Spirit "caught up" Philip? we see this term used in Ezekiel as well.

shalom . . .

 

I do not agree with all of your arguments - but certainly the one made above is excellent!

Nice going.

</font>[/QUOTE]Excellent points. These men were taken to heaven WITHOUT dying - translated directly into heaven!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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I understand, fully, that you may believe that "Paradise" changed somehow and Paul's reference to Paradise as Heaven is a post-cross meaning. However; the Bible just does not give us specifics, so to pin down theology is impossible.
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Paradise is mentioned "exactly" THREE times in scripture. "Making stuff up about it outside of that" is pure eisegesis. I say that because many people take the path of eisegesis when it comes to Paradise INSTEAD of letting the Bible speak to the point.

What a great idea - what is your first Bible quote?

Good because so far you have given us nothing.

Again - you are merely quoting "you". Not the TRHEE texts of scripture that actually speak about Paradise.

So until now - no text at all

#1. This text does not mention paradise.

#2. You are construing this to contradict "taken up to heaven" in the case of 2Kings so you are in error. In John 3 we see this point made by Christ speaking of his own sinless character (this is before He ascended to heaven BTW).

This is a reference to Christ as the sinless Messiah - it is not a claim that he has already ascended by His own merits.

IN Romans 10 we see the same point made even AFTER the ascension of Christ.

Clearly the point here is regarding the sinless character and righteousness of Christ. A claim that only he was good enough on His own - by His own merrit to ascend into heaven. Even by comparison to Moses.

Enoch and Elijah were "Taken up to heaven" BY Christ the Creator - and were taken as sinners, forgiven, sinners born again and changed.

The "faith" relationship of Enoch is explicit. He is "pleasing to God" not by his OWN righteousness but by the merits and righteousness of CHRIST. (under that same ONE Gospel functioning in BOTH OT and NT!!)

But it is worth noting that so far you have mentioned no text in OT or NT that refers to Paradise.

Hopefully you have not abandoned your previous statement about accepting the ONE Gospel functioning in both OT and NT.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Not in heaven yet. Still in the grave. But as Eccl 12 points out "The spirit of all mankind goes to God who gave it" at death. That is because as Paul says in 1Thess 4 the good ones are the "Dead in Christ" those who "sleep" according to Paul. If the dead are "Asleep" then the fact that the "spirit" of all men goes to God at death is not a way to get "heaven" for wicked people.

Peter did NOT say "David has ascended into heaven - he is no longer buried, he is no longer in some other realm that is called not-heaven".

You seem to "need" to make Acts 2 say something other than what it says.

The text RELIES on the argument that David is NOT ascended into heaven. It does not say "Did not USED to be in heaven"!!

John 20 "I have NOT YET ascended to the Father" - this is Christ AFTER His resurrection!

I believe "Him" - anyone else want to join me in this?

So this is not a text about paradise and while the Bible DOES say Elijah was taken up to heaven - it does not say Jesus went there at His death or after it - not until after John 20:16.

Hey we agree on something!

And "now" finally we get to the fIRST text that speaks to the subject of Paradise -

Lets see - here it is --

Notice the specific time frame context for the answer Christ Gives.

"WHEN you come in your kingdom"

The future promise of paradise is clear in that text.

#1. There is no text in all of scripture saying "Jesus took paradise into heaven".

#2. You are "quoting you" again.

#3. You still have two texts about Paradise left to go.

In Luke 23 Luke points us to the future "WHEN you come in your kingdom" as the time when the theif would be WITH Christ in paradise.

In 2Cor 12 Paul says he was caught up to paradise which is in fact IN the 3rd heaven. (i.e. not outer space).

So we have NOTHING about "paradise moving"

We have Paradise being IN the third heaven and NO statement in scripture that it was EVER anywhere else!

In Rev we are told that PAradise is where God's throne is! Clearly Christ did not go to Paradise while dead.

In the case of the translation of Elijah and Enoch "They were taken up to Heaven" which is where Paradise is according to Paul.

IN the cse of the Matt 17 Transfiguration - Moses and Elijah came from heaven - which is where Paradise is according to Paul in 2Cor 12.

In Christ,

Bob

 

No spinmiester! You must deal with Jesus' answer..."Today".

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus committed His Spirit to His Father on the cross - which means He went to Heaven/Paradise Spiritually that day - and so did the thief.

Christ did not bodily ascend until 40 days after His resurrection. However; I believe that He did go to Heaven between the time He saw Mary Magdelene and when He saw the other women right after His resurrection - this is when He received His glorified body.

Why? Because Jesus told Mary Mag that she could not touch Him because He had not yet gone to His Father, but later, when Jesus met the women, Mary Mag was present and grasped His feet with the other women - no warning was given not to touch Him.

ps: thanx, Bob - good perspective - we agree for the most part - I do want to clear up that I was having trouble with Enoch and Elijah physically entering Heaven, but I am not stoically sticking with my position that it was not bodily. I am in process of working through parts of this

 

Bob wrote:
Enoch and Elijah were "Taken up to heaven" BY Christ the Creator - and were taken as sinners, forgiven, sinners born again and changed.

eloidalmanutha:
this is an excellent point and one that I have not made clear, and perhaps have vacilated on during this discussion - my head was spinning as well

as I was reading other OT scripts while working through this topic, I found that the Holy Spirit was given to some as God chose - and the Word says specifically - The Spirit was "in" them.

Paul stated that the Rock that Moses had smote was Jesus = Living Water. Reborn of Spirit and Water is the process of salvation, and as we know, Jesus IS the Living Water, just as He is the Spirit. Salvation is by grace and faith - therefore: those in the OT who believed in the promise of God by faith have the same salvation that we do - because, Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.

To those who find a problem with this concept and ask why Jesus had to die - He had to shed His blood in order for salvation to be a completed work. BUT, in God's eyes was a done deal - which is why "pre-cross" salvations occured.

The problem, as I see it, is that there are those who want to put God on a level of human understanding. It ain't gonna happen. Just as He said in 1 Tim 3:16 - Great is the MYSTERY of Godliness, GOD was made manifest in the flesh. Salvation is a mystery and we MUST believe by faith that God accomplished HIS purpose as He chooses, not us.

 

Sorry, cannot be unless Jesus lied to Mary...

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father : but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father ,"(John 20:17)

He did not go to heaven yet, but told her He was on His way. Can't wiggle out of it!

Jesus told the thief...

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise ".(Luke 23:43)

Jesus and the thief went to paradise "Today" the day of death, not heaven were the Father is. Can't wiggle out of it!

Argue with God all you want because these are not my "opinions" or "interpretations". It is written plainly and is right in context. (No matter how many rabbit trials brother Bob lays down in an attempt to blur the issue, the Word of God stands and I will stand defending it).

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Correct, Jesus did not ascend in His glorified body to Heaven until 40 days after His resurrection, but He did go to His Father to receive His glorified body right after He was resurrected. He saw Mary Magdelene first. His Spirit was in Heaven/Paradise the moment He died as He commended His Spirit to His Father. And therefore was in Heaven with the thief.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Please follow the chronological order:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. [Jesus said "I ascend" - present tense - does not have glorified body which is why Mary cannot touch Him]

Mark 16:9 ¶ And having risen early on the first of the sabbath, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.

Matt 28:1 ¶ But late in the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary came to gaze upon the grave.
5 But answering, the angel said to the women, You must not fear, for I know that you seek Jesus who has been crucified.
6 He is not here, for He was raised, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord was lying.
7 And going quickly say to His disciples that He was raised from the dead. And behold! He goes before you into Galilee. You will see Him there. Behold! I told you.
8 And going away from the tomb quickly, with fear and great joy, they ran to report to His disciples.
9 But as they were going to report to His disciples, behold, Jesus also met them, saying, Hail! And coming near, they seized His feet and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, Do not fear. Go tell your brothers that they may go into Galilee, and there they will see Me. [Jesus now has glorified body and Mary Mag is allowed to touch Him].

 

I did not intend my post to put "you" in a bad light. Rather I wanted to point out that the "classic argument" for "scooting Paradise all over the cosmose" is a non-biblical one - it relies on 90% conjecture and 10% scripture. You are using that argument but you did not invent it.

I wanted to point out that a serious review of the subject would/should BEGIN with the 3 texts of scripture that "actually" talk about Paradise.

Arguments based heavily on conjecture and inference typically start out telling you what they want you to believe but they never actually get to the detailed review of the text (even if the text is soooo sparse on the point that there are only 3 -- count them THREE - texts on the subject).

Obviously we differ on our POV - I am just pointing out that the methods also differ since the classic argument about "Paradise on wheels" must go far beyond "what is written" to make its rather unique "claims". The salient points for that argument can NOT be found in the form of "Bible quotes".

IN Christ,

Bob

 

now that is a big 10-4

 

Jesus body was in the grave for three days and three nights. His Spirit did not die, was with God because He is God. The Spirit cannot die. It is eternal, regardless if you are a believer or not. You either get eternal life in Heaven or eternal hell fire.

Apparently you do not believe in separation of body and spirit, but I do. So I guess we will have to leave that one alone.

Heb 4:12 For the Word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart;
13 and there is no creature unrevealed before Him; but all things are naked and laid open to His eyes, with whom is our account.

Jesus raised Himself from the grave, just as He lay down His own life to take it up again. Like I said, He is eternal, Infinite. His human body died, just like we do - that He would conquer death with His resurrection. He was raised by His Spirit - His body form - just like Lazurus was. That is when Mary Magdelene saw Him. He went to Heaven at that point, received His glorified body and came back to appear to His disciples for 40 days and was then ascended into Heaven. Next time He returns, we will all see Him in His glory and power - every knee will bow and every tongue proclaim that He is Lord - believers, unbelievers, angels and demons. It will be quite an event.

Heb 9:11 ¶ But Christ having appeared as a High Priest of the coming good things, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation,
12 nor through the blood of goats and of calves, but through His own blood, He entered once for all into the Holy of Holies, having procured everlasting redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats, and ashes of a heifer sprinkling those having been defiled, sanctifies to the purity of the flesh,
14 by how much more the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God), will purify your conscience from dead works, to serve the living God!

 

Let's look at this objectively, logically.

Jesus commends His Spirit to God, dies, and is put in a tomb. His body is dead, His Spirit lives. He descends into hell/hades/grave - this is not satan's abode - it is the place of the dead. He accomplished all that He came for on the cross [Col 2].

When Jesus rose, His body was gone from the tomb - which insinuates that His Spirit came back into His body - the same body that had died. At that point He sees Mary Magdelene and tells her not to touch Him because He has not yet gone to Heaven to enter the Holy of Holies. Tells her to tell the disciples that He IS ascending to the Father.

The next time He sees her, she grabs His feet in worship. His body has changed. What is my proof?

From that point on, Jesus appears and disappears at will. He walks through doors. So His body is not the same. He has a bodily form, but it is not made of bone and blood and He says so. His body has been glorified by a brief visit to Heaven to enter Heaven's Holy of Holies and present Himself to God as the The High Priest and Sacrifical Lamb for sin. Comes back to be with the disciples and after 40 days, commissions them. And then ascends into Heaven with His glorified body - incorruptable - the same kind we will have some day - and will one day return as He left - as the angels explained.

You think too much instead of accepting the Word of God by faith. It is going to be a mystery, whether you want to accept that or not. This is why we walk by faith. If God had wanted us to know this process, He would have told us in minute detail.