Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> you forgot the rest of the definition of "shamayim". Strong's also says this hebrew word means the abode of God.
I see that your perception of Scripture is far different than mine, off the beaten path so to speak - in other words, you are undermining God's Word - so I think it's time to let it go.
I do not believe that you have been honest with me - but some day I will discover under what "venue" you are getting your teachings from because they hint of agenda.
shalom . . .
Wow! I present full scripture (God's Word) and you call it "off the beaten path...undermining God's Word".
I present full scripture studied and rightly divided and you call me a liar.
It appears it is "time for you to let it go" because you have no rebutal for the word of God itself. You cannot show where my exposition is in error.
And I thought I made it clear that the scripture reveals that the translation "heaven" has a three fold definition, so yes the "abode of God" is one of them, but one must let scripture interpret scripture to understand which heaven is in view when spoken of in each passage.
To summarize my prior post it is. Elo says that Elijah went to heaven (the abode of God) and Jesus says...." And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven ".(John 3:13) which is clearly the "abode of God".
You know, humbleness and a willingness to see an error in postion is far more pleasing to God and fruitful for us than calling another a liar, ignoring the facts, and cutting to run.
Have it your way. I have presented evidence for what I believe is truth, hundreds have probably read it and maybe some will look into it more carefully to make sure they are teaching the correct doctrine concerning heaven. I am just a preacher, take it or leave it.
It was a pleasure discussing this with you brother.
I am sure many will benefit from all that was said. Take care!
God Bless!
</font>[/QUOTE]I said you were being less than honest with me - in regard to your teachings - as Solomon said - there is nothing new under the sun, so I will run across them somewhere in God's timing
I believe it is necessary to explain my position, so perhaps our dialogue will continue for a bit. Just when I think I am done, God continues to work on me, so onwards, for the momento
I am sure you will find "holes". My understanding of God's Word is open ended upon His direction. I have heard bits and pieces of your rendering, and I find no confirmation in God's Word, so I cannot "go there". It is not that I am not open, but rather that your position cannot be supported Bibically. I realize that you think the same of me. As I have said before - God has the "final answer"
Jesus told the story of Lazurus and the rich man. Lazurus ended up in Paradise, which is Heaven, according to Paul [2 Cor 12] - that was pre-cross. It appears they had both had some kind of form that the rich man would recognize Lazurus, but I do not believe it was the incorruptable form of which Paul speaks [2 Cor 5].
1 Cor 15:50 And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 ¶ Behold, I speak a mystery to you: we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed.
52 In a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet; for a trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Another term for Paradise is Abraham's bosom - so there is no doubt in my mind that both Elijah and Enoch were translated into Heaven. Although we are not told how God did this, perhaps He will show us in the age to come. I believe that their physical bodies did not go to Heaven as God says that no man has seen Him and lived [flesh body], nor can a corruptable body enter Heaven - but I do know that they did not ascend - only Jesus has ascended - There are examples of others who also entered Heaven in Spirit [OT] - Daniel, Isaiah, and Ezekiel.
I understand, fully, that you may believe that "Paradise" changed somehow and Paul's reference to Paradise as Heaven is a post-cross meaning. However; the Bible just does not give us specifics, so to pin down theology is impossible. You will find views all across the board on this subject, which is why I don't really find it advantageous to keep poking at it
It is really way down the list in importance to one's walk with God
Continuing, I also noticed that in Acts 2:34 it says that David
is not present tense - ascended into Heaven - so where does that leave your theory? To my way of thinking, this statement confirms my position, that "no man ascending into Heaven" refers to the process by which Jesus ascended - in an incorruptable body which we will be changed into upon His return. This is why Jesus says that no man has ascended into Heaven accept Him - and even Paul was not sure in what form he was in Heaven.
again - the 1 Cor 15 verse interprets this phrase:
15:And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God.
My personal view of the 3rd Heaven is that it is the abode of God. The first Heaven is the earth's atmosphere based on Gen 1 and the 2nd Heaven would be what we call "outer space" or our universe [firmaments/heavens Gen 1]. Again - that is my opinion.
My support would be the flood, because the water came down from the "heavens" plural - which tells me that it was an unusual and encompassing rainfall. The water also came up from the earth. Perhaps, as some scientists have surmised, the rainfall at that time was unlike any that has ever been - coming from the outer atmostphere as well [2nd Heaven or firmament], and changed the environment here radically [downsized]. In order for the whole earth to be covered in water, it had to come from other than just the earth's atmosphere, in my opinion.
Gen 7:11 ¶ In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, in this day all the fountains of the great deep were risen,
and the windows of the heavens were opened up.
12 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.
I am curious, however - exactly where you think Enoch and Elijah went? why would God call their "departure" something out of the ordinary - and why would Paul say that Enoch was "translated" [defined as passing over in Strong's] or as in Acts when the Spirit "caught up" Philip? we see this term used in Ezekiel as well.
shalom . . .
