Saved Without Hearing The Gospel?

[Charlie24]

Those are the Hebrews/Jews, the conversation is about the Gentiles who had no way of knowing, unless they came in contact with the Hebrews and learned from them, as some did.

But the rest of the Gentile world didn't know, and God did not pass them by who He knew would believe.

Someone will say that I'm adding to Scripture what is not there. Im not stating a fact in Scripture because it's not there, I'm stating what I believe.

I believe there many saved in Egypt when the 10 plagues took place and some of the Egyptians with no knowledge of a coming Christ believed what they saw in the power of Jehovah God and believed He was the one and only God.

I think they repented and acknowledged God and were saved. the reason many of them gave them gold, silver, costly apparel, livestock when they left.

 

[Silverhair]

Please don't confuse general (natural) revelation in Rom. 1 with the salvific message given through special revelation. God sees those who seek Him outside of normal missionary activity, but then guides preachers to them to give them the Gospel. Rom. 1 says nowhere that God will save without the Gospel message. You've given no Scripture to prove your point.

And again I point you back to the OT. They did not have the gospel message and yet they were considered righteous. They were saved by God through their trust/faith in Him.

As a missionary preacher I am sure you came across or at least heard of people that had trusted in God prior to hearing the gospel message. Do you really think they were not saved? Do you think God would say well you trust in me but you have missed the boat as you did not say the right words.

The bible is clear in Hebrews 11
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Reading this, I'm not sure you are actually paying attention to what I wrote. I agreed completely that God can save without the Gospel. He can also crash the moon into the earth, but He doesn't. God can save without the Gospel, but He chooses not to. If you disagree, please give Scripture instead of speculation.

Yes John I have read your post and I see you agree that God can save those He chooses to save for the reason that He chooses to save. God has saved many people without the gospel John. All the OT saints come to mind. And my question for you is do you think everything that God has done or is doing has been written in the bible?

I actually do find that to be a odd request. Since the NT is about salvation through trusting in the risen Christ, the new covenant, I would expect Paul and the others to point to Christ.

Again, this confuses general and special revelation. Rom. 1 is the key passage that teaches general revelation. Where in that passage or any other does it say that a lost soul can be saved without the Gospel. You have yet to give Scripture.

I look at the overall teaching of the bible, don't you? If God could and did save those in the OT that trusted in Him and He does nor change then why would you think He could not or would not do so now?

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9).

That is why we are not to trust our own hearts but I do believe God is quite good at judging a person's heart.

Again I ask for an example of someone in history who was saved without the Gospel.

Read Heb 11.

 

[Silverhair]

Hebrews 1:1. 'God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things.'
John 14:6. "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Agreed those in the OT just as those in the NT come to the father through the Son.

They did not hear the gospel in the OT so what makes you think they could not respond to any of the various means that God uses to draw man to Himself?

 

[John of Japan]

And again I point you back to the OT. They did not have the gospel message and yet they were considered righteous. They were saved by God through their trust/faith in Him.

You're missing my point, I believe. You were talking about people being saved without the Gospel in this NT dispensation, not the OT dispensation. (Don't be turned off by the term "dispensation." Many theologians use that word who are covenant theologians, and indeed, it is in the Bible.) So I'm asking how someone in the NT dispensation can be saved without the Gospel.

As a missionary preacher I am sure you came across or at least heard of people that had trusted in God prior to hearing the gospel message. Do you really think they were not saved? Do you think God would say well you trust in me but you have missed the boat as you did not say the right words.

You must have totally missed my post #45, where I wrote: I bear personal witness that people in a Buddhist or Shinto society do not seek God for salvation without the Gospel. These religions (like Islam, Hinduism, etc.) are completely self centered. Zen Buddhism, for example, is a completely introspective religion. All Buddhists seek enlightenment and Nirvana, which are both completely self-centered. Shinto is complete idolatry, believing that everything has a "god" in it, so I've seen people bow to trees, mountains, etc. All human religions turn people away from the true God, not to Him."

Again, in Post #39 I wrote, "If there were such a person, Don Richardson would certainly have written about him in his book Eternity in Their Hearts. Are you familiar with it? Richardson chronicles people groups all over the world with legends or customs that prepared them to hear the Gospel. My favorite of those stories is of the Karen tribespeople in Burma, who had a tradition that a white man with a precious book by God. Secular visitors recorded the tradition, and once a Muslim even visited with a Quran. However, it was when the Christian missionaries finally arrived with the Bible and the Gospel that the Karen tribe turned to Christ en masse.

"So again, if there were people saved without the Gospel, where are they? I suppose I have close to 100 books on missions and reaching the world for Christ, and I teach 'Advanced Missions' and 'The History of Missions' in our Bible college. But never in all of my years have I heard or read a testimony of someone saved without the Gospel."

The bible is clear in Hebrews 11
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.



Yes John I have read your post and I see you agree that God can save those He chooses to save for the reason that He chooses to save. God has saved many people without the gospel John. All the OT saints come to mind. And my question for you is do you think everything that God has done or is doing has been written in the bible?

My focus has been on the NT dispensation, and I quoted Rom. 10:14-15, which very clearly states that a person must hear a preacher, "proclaimer," to be saved. I don't thing Paul could have been any plainer.

But yes, all I need to know about salvation is written in the Bible.

I actually do find that to be a odd request. Since the NT is about salvation through trusting in the risen Christ, the new covenant, I would expect Paul and the others to point to Christ.

I'm sorry, what request do you mean? I can't find that post.

I look at the overall teaching of the bible, don't you? If God could and did save those in the OT that trusted in Him and He does nor change then why would you think He could not or would not do so now?

That is why we are not to trust our own hearts but I do believe God is quite good at judging a person's heart.

Read Heb 11.

I'll reference the theology of "salvation history" here. My German student reminded me that the technical German term is Heilsgeschichte. The OT was all preparation for the cross of Christ and His resurrection, so that God could call out a people for His name. Therefore, OT saints were saved by looking forward to the Messiah. This includes the saints of Heb. 11, and any other OT saints. They had the "protoevangelium" given to Adam, then passed down by Noah.

 

[Silverhair]

You're missing my point, I believe. You were talking about people being saved without the Gospel in this NT dispensation, not the OT dispensation. (Don't be turned off by the term "dispensation." Many theologians use that word who are covenant theologians, and indeed, it is in the Bible.) So I'm asking how someone in the NT dispensation can be saved without the Gospel.

Man is saved in just the same way in OT or NT times. By grace through faith.

FYI not bothered by the term "dispensation".

You must have totally missed my post #45, where I wrote: I bear personal witness that people in a Buddhist or Shinto society do not seek God for salvation without the Gospel. These religions (like Islam, Hinduism, etc.) are completely self centered. Zen Buddhism, for example, is a completely introspective religion. All Buddhists seek enlightenment and Nirvana, which are both completely self-centered. Shinto is complete idolatry, believing that everything has a "god" in it, so I've seen people bow to trees, mountains, etc. All human religions turn people away from the true God, not to Him."

Those that hear the gospel are responsible for how they respond to it. Those that have turned to God in faith in response to a dream as we have seen happening in many closed countries are also saved even though they have not heard the gospel message.

For some time, there have been consistent reports of people in a number of countries reporting personal experiences with Jesus by way of dreams or visions.

God looks at the heart not what a person says.

My focus has been on the NT dispensation, and I quoted Rom. 10:14-15, which very clearly states that a person must hear a preacher, "proclaimer," to be saved. I don't thing Paul could have been any plainer.

John I understand what you have been saying and I agree that those that hear the gospel message are responsible for their response.

I would fully expect the writers of the NT to focus on the gospel message. But I also know that God does not change and when I see Him save people without the gospel message in the OT I se no reason to say He cannot do it now.

I'll reference the theology of "salvation history" here. My German student reminded me that the technical German term is Heilsgeschichte. The OT was all preparation for the cross of Christ and His resurrection, so that God could call out a people for His name. Therefore, OT saints were saved by looking forward to the Messiah. This includes the saints of Heb. 11, and any other OT saints. They had the "protoevangelium" given to Adam, then passed down by Noah.

Yes we have the "protoevangelium" {Gen 3:15} given to Adam, then passed down by Noah.

And we also have this
Isa 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

The same God {Jehovah = the existing one} that saved in the OT is the same God that saves in the NT.

 

[John of Japan]

Man is saved in just the same way in OT or NT times. By grace through faith.

Exactly. But it has to be faith in a person: the coming "Seed of the woman," the Messiah (OT) or the Messiah who has already come, the Lord Jesus Christ.

FYI not bothered by the term "dispensation".

Those that hear the gospel are responsible for how they respond to it. Those that have turned to God in faith in response to a dream as we have seen happening in many closed countries are also saved even though they have not heard the gospel message.

For some time, there have been consistent reports of people in a number of countries reporting personal experiences with Jesus by way of dreams or visions.

I am very familiar with these episodes, having a friend who is an Iranian evangelist. What is happening, though, is not without the Gospel. In fact,, in the dreams Jesus Himself comes to a Muslim and reveals Himself, much like He did to the Apostle Paul. I have no problem with that, and rejoice in it. But the Gospel is proclaimed by Jesus Himself. These Muslims are not coming to Christ without the Gospel.

God looks at the heart not what a person says.


John I understand what you have been saying and I agree that those that hear the gospel message are responsible for their response.

I would fully expect the writers of the NT to focus on the gospel message. But I also know that God does not change and when I see Him save people without the gospel message in the OT I se no reason to say He cannot do it now.

Well of course He can do it now. That is not the question. The question is, is that His will? You keep saying that people don't have to believe words. Well of course that's true. They must believe the Christ of the Gospel, not just the spoken Gospel. One is saved by believing in Christ--but "How shall they hear without a preacher?"

Yes we have the "protoevangelium" {Gen 3:15} given to Adam, then passed down by Noah.

And we also have this
Isa 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

The same God {Jehovah = the existing one} that saved in the OT is the same God that saves in the NT.

Of course.

 

[John of Japan]

Here is an example of how the Gospel of a coming Messiah was passed down until Christ in non-Jewish people groups. The Chinese language has some very interesting characters. For example, the one for "ship" is a boat (舟) with 8 (八) mouths (口), or people in it, thus: 船. Think about that.

Even more telling is the character for righteousness. It is 義, composed of the character for a sheep (羊) over me (我). So the ancient Chinese had a knowledge of sacrifice for sins, necessitating a Savior. The original Chinese religion was the monotheistic worship of Shang Di (上帝), sometimes translated "highest deity." I believe that until Christ came the Chinese could be saved with this knowledge. Then Christian missionaries were sent to China very early on to inform them of the true Savior, Jesus Christ. By the time of Christ, this monotheistic worship had turned into idolatry, so they did need missionaries to preach to them.

 

[MrW]

That is with the available knowledge we have now. But what about 4000 years ago, the Gentiles who had nothing but God's creation to recognize Him? Did God say, you didn't accept Christ as your Savior and off the Hell you go?

No, He didn't. God is the sending business, we see Him in Scripture sending someone no matter where they are to bring them salvation.

Those who recognized God's creation and humbled themselves, were sent someone by God, or He had another way to bring them to the knowledge of salvation. They were not passed by.

Those who believed God before the Cross of Christ were kept in Paradise, in Abraham's bosom, until Christ was resurrected, when He led captivity captive and gave good gifts to men.

The disagreement is TODAY, after the Cross, Silverhair seems to think someone can be saved apart from believing on Christ--which is actually hyper-Calvinism, and I am sure he is not a Calvinist.

 

[Charlie24]

Those who believed God before the Cross of Christ were kept in Paradise, in Abraham's bosom, until Christ was resurrected, when He led captivity captive and gave good gifts to men.

The disagreement is TODAY, after the Cross, Silverhair seems to think someone can be saved apart from believing on Christ--which is actually hyper-Calvinism, and I am sure he is not a Calvinist.

My conversation on the matter was before the Cross, even the soon to be apostles didn't understand the Gospel.

After the Cross I agree the decree came that faith in Christ and what He did was demanded and that knowledge came through the Gospel.

 

[MrW]

John of Japan wrote: "It is not limiting the sovereign God to say that He Himself limits salvation to those who hear the Gospel. God can certainly save without the Gospel if He wants to. But His plan (cf Greek boule, βουλή) is that the Gospel be the means of people getting saved through the death of Christ on the cross. As Paul said, "For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel (boule) of God" (Acts 20:27). God only has one plan of salvation."

Exactly. The entire Old Testament teaches that sacrifice for sins must be made. It was fulfilled by Christ on the cross. John 14:6; Acts 4:12.

God Himself has limited salvation to those who believe on Christ. There is no alternate reality.

 

[John of Japan]

I deeply sympathize with those on this thread who are saying people can get saved without knowing the Gospel in the NT dispensation. As a missionary, I often thought about this and searched the Scriptures to learn about it. The biblical position, I believe, is what Jesus said in John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." In other words, Jesus is always active in drawing people to Himself, even if the individual doesn't know the Gospel. (This is not saying anyone can be saved without knowing Jesus and accepting Him as Savior.)

I've already mentioned the missiology of Don Richardson in his book Eternity in Their Hearts (1981). He was also the author of Peace Child (1974), which told about his work among the Sawi tribe of Irian Jawa, which was at war with a neighboring tribe and was rejecting the Savior. Then the two tribes made peace, and to keep the peace the chiefs traded sons! Richardson used this custom as an analogy to give them the Gospel in that God gave His only Son to make peace with mankind. This developed into his missiology of the redemptive analogy, explained further in his book Eternity in Their Hearts. In this book he gives many examples of this. I've given one such example here in the Karen tribe and their belief that a white man would come with a holy book, and in the Chinese language and culture. These redemptive analogies are all part of God's plan to open hearts to the Gospel when the missionary gets there.

What happens if a tribe or even an individual is longing to know the true God and His salvation? God will send someone! "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" (Matt. 7:7). My favorite illustration of this is in the fascinating book Cowboy Boots in Darkest Africa by my mother's uncle, Bill Rice, founder of the famous campground The Bill Rice Ranch in Murfreesboro, TN. Rice went on a missionary trip to Africa and preached the Gospel to many. One day the missionary suggested they go into the jungle to reach a pygmy tribe that had never seen a white man, so they set off with an interpreter and found the tribe. To make a long story short, they were eventually able to break through the cultural burial when Rice told them he knew where their ancestors were. After learning the truth, one old pygmy said, "I thought it must be something like this. When I was young I climbed a tree, looked at the stars and said, "If there is a true God, reveal yourself to me. And now I know the true God." This man and many others of the tribe trusted Christ as Savior.

 

[Charlie24]

I deeply sympathize with those on this thread who are saying people can get saved without knowing the Gospel in the NT dispensation. As a missionary, I often thought about this and searched the Scriptures to learn about it. The biblical position, I believe, is what Jesus said in John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." In other words, Jesus is always active in drawing people to Himself, even if the individual doesn't know the Gospel. (This is not saying anyone can be saved without knowing Jesus and accepting Him as Savior.)

I've already mentioned the missiology of Don Richardson in his book Eternity in Their Hearts (1981). He was also the author of Peace Child (1974), which told about his work among the Sawi tribe of Irian Jawa, which was at war with a neighboring tribe and was rejecting the Savior. Then the two tribes made peace, and to keep the peace the chiefs traded sons! Richardson used this custom as an analogy to give them the Gospel in that God gave His only Son to make peace with mankind. This developed into his missiology of the redemptive analogy, explained further in his book Eternity in Their Hearts. In this book he gives many examples of this. I've given one such example here in the Karen tribe and their belief that a white man would come with a holy book, and in the Chinese language and culture. These redemptive analogies are all part of God's plan to open hearts to the Gospel when the missionary gets there.

What happens if a tribe or even an individual is longing to know the true God and His salvation? God will send someone! "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" (Matt. 7:7). My favorite illustration of this is in the fascinating book Cowboy Boots in Darkest Africa by my mother's uncle, Bill Rice, founder of the famous campground The Bill Rice Ranch in Murfreesboro, TN. Rice went on a missionary trip to Africa and preached the Gospel to many. One day the missionary suggested they go into the jungle to reach a pygmy tribe that had never seen a white man, so they set off with an interpreter and found the tribe. To make a long story short, they were eventually able to break through the cultural burial when Rice told them he knew where their ancestors were. After learning the truth, one old pygmy said, "I thought it must be something like this. When I was young I climbed a tree, looked at the stars and said, "If there is a true God, reveal yourself to me. And now I know the true God." This man and many others of the tribe trusted Christ as Savior.

I've said it many times over the years, God is in the sending business. The book of Acts is filled with, "and God sent..."

And the sending was with a specific purpose to take the Gospel to someone.

 

[Silverhair]

I deeply sympathize with those on this thread who are saying people can get saved without knowing the Gospel in the NT dispensation. As a missionary, I often thought about this and searched the Scriptures to learn about it. The biblical position, I believe, is what Jesus said in John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." In other words, Jesus is always active in drawing people to Himself, even if the individual doesn't know the Gospel. (This is not saying anyone can be saved without knowing Jesus and accepting Him as Savior.)

I've already mentioned the missiology of Don Richardson in his book Eternity in Their Hearts (1981). He was also the author of Peace Child (1974), which told about his work among the Sawi tribe of Irian Jawa, which was at war with a neighboring tribe and was rejecting the Savior. Then the two tribes made peace, and to keep the peace the chiefs traded sons! Richardson used this custom as an analogy to give them the Gospel in that God gave His only Son to make peace with mankind. This developed into his missiology of the redemptive analogy, explained further in his book Eternity in Their Hearts. In this book he gives many examples of this. I've given one such example here in the Karen tribe and their belief that a white man would come with a holy book, and in the Chinese language and culture. These redemptive analogies are all part of God's plan to open hearts to the Gospel when the missionary gets there.

What happens if a tribe or even an individual is longing to know the true God and His salvation? God will send someone! "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" (Matt. 7:7). My favorite illustration of this is in the fascinating book Cowboy Boots in Darkest Africa by my mother's uncle, Bill Rice, founder of the famous campground The Bill Rice Ranch in Murfreesboro, TN. Rice went on a missionary trip to Africa and preached the Gospel to many. One day the missionary suggested they go into the jungle to reach a pygmy tribe that had never seen a white man, so they set off with an interpreter and found the tribe. To make a long story short, they were eventually able to break through the cultural burial when Rice told them he knew where their ancestors were. After learning the truth, one old pygmy said, "I thought it must be something like this. When I was young I climbed a tree, looked at the stars and said, "If there is a true God, reveal yourself to me. And now I know the true God." This man and many others of the tribe trusted Christ as Savior.

JoJ you do not have to sympathize with me. I firmly believe that God is in the saving business. He saved those that believed in Him in the OT times and He does the same for those in NT times.

If I am wrong then I have not denied all those that God choose to save through their faith in Him if you are wrong then you have done just that.

Since God desires all to come to repentance I take Him at His word in that He has provided the means for all people to know Him and trust in Him.

If God requires that it is only through the Gospel then He is being disingenuous as He knows that not all can hear the gospel and yet judges them for not responding to it. But all can know Him through creation and conviction of sin so all can be judged for how they respond to those. Just as those that do hear the gospel will be judged for how they respond to it.

So as I said B4 no need to sympathize with me as I am quite comfortable with what I believe about how and why God will save someone.

 

[John of Japan]

JoJ you do not have to sympathize with me. I firmly believe that God is in the saving business. He saved those that believed in Him in the OT times and He does the same for those in NT times.

What I meant by "sympathize" was not "feel badly for," but to have an inclination to agree with you. I suppress that inclination, though, because it is not biblical.

If I am wrong then I have not denied all those that God choose to save through their faith in Him if you are wrong then you have done just that.

If I am wrong then hyper-Calvinism is right, and God does not choose to use the sacrifice of His dear Son to accomplish His salvific will, but chooses people for salvation willy-nilly with no particular reason.

Since God desires all to come to repentance I take Him at His word in that He has provided the means for all people to know Him and trust in Him.

Yes, He has, and it is called the Gospel.

If God requires that it is only through the Gospel then He is being disingenuous as He knows that not all can hear the gospel and yet judges them for not responding to it. But all can know Him through creation and conviction of sin so all can be judged for how they respond to those. Just as those that do hear the gospel will be judged for how they respond to it.

So as I said B4 no need to sympathize with me as I am quite comfortable with what I believe about how and why God will save someone.

I absolutely disagree that I am making God disingenuous. That's a dangerous thing to say. You are essentially accusing me of saying that God is a liar.

Yes, all can know Him through natural (general) revelation, but look again at Romans 1. It does not say "It's God's fault if they don't get saved," but "They are without excuse" (v. 20). I lived in the pagan land of Japan for decades, and I am here to tell you that the people of Japan are wicked. Buddhism and Shintoism are evil, and drive people away from God. I learned and know of many things about Japan that I cannot share here, they are so wicked.

I saw 3 yakuza gangsters come to Christ, and all 3 of them would have told you they were wicked; I met the assistant godfather, and he said, "We're all going to Hell." He knew he was wicked. All 3 of the gangsters I saw come to Christ doubted whether God would forgive them, but He did. Brother U. was a gang leader, involved in drugs, scams, filthy literature, you name it. He knew he was evil, but rejoiced to receive God's salvation in spite of his wickedness. The last time I saw him we met at a restaurant in the big city of Sapporo where he had fled the gang (thinking the godfather might order him to be killed. This tough, formerly wicked gangster hugged me and said "Thank you, pastor." Now that is real salvation according to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You have yet to give a single Scripture for your view. I have given several, and have fully explained my missiology on this subject., which you choose not to interact with. Can you give a single evangelical missiologist who agrees with you? I've read many, and never found your view expressed: Richardson, Hesselgrave, Peters, Glover, Kane, etc. etc.

 

[Silverhair]

What I meant by "sympathize" was not "feel badly for," but to have an inclination to agree with you. I suppress that inclination, though, because it is not biblical.

You have your opinion on how and why God will save someone and I see Him as more loving than you do it would seem as I see Him looking at the persons heart and not needing the words. You seem to be focused on the words.

If I am wrong then hyper-Calvinism is right, and God does not choose to use the sacrifice of His dear Son to accomplish His salvific will, but chooses people for salvation willy-nilly with no particular reason.

God does not do things willy-nilly. How many times do I have to write it out before you get it. Those that respond in faith to His drawing them can and will be saved by Him.

Yes, He has, and it is called the Gospel.

It is also creation, and conviction of sin. Do you have a direct line to the mind of God. Do you have Gnostic insights to all the reasons for what He chooses to do?

I absolutely disagree that I am making God disingenuous. That's a dangerous thing to say. You are essentially accusing me of saying that God is a liar.

Yes, all can know Him through natural (general) revelation, but look again at Romans 1. It does not say "It's God's fault if they don't get saved," but "They are without excuse" (v. 20). I lived in the pagan land of Japan for decades, and I am here to tell you that the people of Japan are wicked. Buddhism and Shintoism are evil, and drive people away from God. I learned and know of many things about Japan that I cannot share here, they are so wicked.

I saw 3 yakuza gangsters come to Christ, and all 3 of them would have told you they were wicked; I met the assistant godfather, and he said, "We're all going to Hell." He knew he was wicked. All 3 of the gangsters I saw come to Christ doubted whether God would forgive them, but He did. Brother U. was a gang leader, involved in drugs, scams, filthy literature, you name it. He knew he was evil, but rejoiced to receive God's salvation in spite of his wickedness. The last time I saw him we met at a restaurant in the big city of Sapporo where he had fled the gang (thinking the godfather might order him to be killed. This tough, formerly wicked gangster hugged me and said "Thank you, pastor." Now that is real salvation according to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You have yet to give a single Scripture for your view. I have given several, and have fully explained my missiology on this subject., which you choose not to interact with. Can you give a single evangelical missiologist who agrees with you? I've read many, and never found your view expressed: Richardson, Hesselgrave, Peters, Glover, Kane, etc. etc.

When the bible says He desires all to be saved and that man has no excuse for not knowing Him and will judge people for not turning to Him in faith and you then add that He will only save in the way you think He can then it is you that is making God disingenuous.

You are flat out denying that God can do as He chooses to do in regard to salvation.

As I have said many times those that do not freely trust in God will be lost. You have a problem with the other side of the equation those that do freely trust in Him will be saved.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Heb 11:4, Heb 11:5, Heb 11:7 I am sure you get the picture.

Then we can look at Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Now I know you will not accept my words but perhaps you will trust these men:

From the merely controversial point of view these words have a value in ascribing the justification or salvation of the woman to faith, and not to love. Those who go deeper than controversy will find in them the further lesson that love pre-supposes faith. We cannot love any one—not even God—unless we first trust Him as being worthy of our love. Ellicott

Thy faith hath been the instrument of receiving the salvation which is promised to those who repent. Go in peace. Clarke

...One who was reclining at the same couch, and partaking of the same hospitalities with themselves, assume the awful prerogative of 'even forgiving sins.' But so far from receding from this claim, or softening it down, our Lord only repeats it, with two precious additions: one, announcing what was the secret of the "forgiveness" she had experienced, and which carried "salvation" in its bosom-her "faith;" the other, a glorious dismissal of her in that "peace" which she had already felt, but is now assured she has His full warrant to enjoy! JFB

The questioning did not stop Jesus. He declared authoritatively that the woman was forgiven by God (your faith has saved you). NET+

Jesus concluded the incident by giving the woman a further word of encouragement and clarification. It was her faith, not her love, that had resulted in her salvation, of which her forgiveness was a part. Constable

There are two errors we must avoid as we interpret our Lord’s words. First, we must not conclude that this woman was saved by her tears and her gift. Jesus made it clear that it was her faith alone that saved her (Luk_7:50), for no amount of good works can pay for salvation (Tit_3:4-7). Wiersbe

It was not hearing the gospel message but faith in God the saved her.

Isa 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

The same God {Jehovah = the existing one} that saved in the OT is the same God that saves in the NT.

 

[MrW]

There is NO SALVATION for lost sinners apart from Jesus Christ.

 

[Silverhair]

There is NO SALVATION for lost sinners apart from Jesus Christ.

There is NO SALVATION for lost sinners apart from GOD.

To hold to your view you have to ignore what God has said and what He desires.

You see it as only through Jesus and I see it as through the various means that God has used to draw man to Himself.

God expects 1] that we can know Him 2] that we can seek Him and 3] that we can turn in faith to Him and He will judge us for what we do in regard to Him.

That is why I take His word seriously.

Isa 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

The same God {Jehovah = the existing one} that saved in the OT is the same God that saves in the NT.

We see the same thing here as in Isaiah.

Act 17:26 and he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
Act 17:27 that they should seek God, if they might grope for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us,

 

[MrW]

John

There is NO SALVATION for lost sinners apart from GOD.

To hold to your view you have to ignore what God has said and what He desires.

You see it as only through Jesus and I see it as through the various means that God has used to draw man to Himself.

God expects 1] that we can know Him 2] that we can seek Him and 3] that we can turn in faith to Him and He will judge us for what we do in regard to Him.

That is why I take His word seriously.

Isa 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

The same God {Jehovah = the existing one} that saved in the OT is the same God that saves in the NT.

We see the same thing here as in Isaiah.

Act 17:26 and he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
Act 17:27 that they should seek God, if they might grope for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us,

John 14:6. Acts 4:12. Acts 10:43.

There’s another thing we have to understand. God put up with people’s ignorance in the past, but after the cross of Christ, there is only one way to be saved, and that is trusting in the Lord Jesus. If someone wants to know the living God, God will send someone to tell them about Jesus. There is no other way.

 

[John of Japan]

There is NO SALVATION for lost sinners apart from GOD.

And Jesus is God, the second person of the trinity.

To hold to your view you have to ignore what God has said and what He desires.

I don't think you actually understand my view. It is completely based on what God has said. I have quoted multiple passages which you have not interacted with, in particular, Rom. 10:14-15, which I have quoted at least twice to you: "14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

So, God's Word says that there must be someone to proclaim Christ, but you say that is not true, do you not? I don't want to misrepresent you, but you have not dealt with this Scripture yet.

You see it as only through Jesus and I see it as through the various means that God has used to draw man to Himself.

Yes, that is how I see it because of Jesus Himself. John 14:6 says, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." My beginning Greek students just translated that verse yesterday, and learned that there are three definite articles in the Greek, one before each noun, and most English translations get it right. The definite article being used shows that there is only one way, one truth and one life: Jesus Himself. To deny that as you have just done is to deny what Jesus said Himself.

Again, many other verses prove it is "only through Jesus." For example, here is Acts 4:12: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

God expects 1] that we can know Him 2] that we can seek Him and 3] that we can turn in faith to Him and He will judge us for what we do in regard to Him.

That is why I take His word seriously.

Isa 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

Yes, this has the imperative forms of two Hebrew verbs: פּנה (pânâh) meaning "Look" and the passive of ישׁע (yâsha‛) meaning "be saved." Since these are imperatives, that means it is possible to disobey the commands. There is no guarantee of obedience, or otherwise the sentence would be a statement of fact, not an imperative.

The same God {Jehovah = the existing one} that saved in the OT is the same God that saves in the NT.

Absolutely: Jesus, the second person of the trinity, is the Savior in both the OT and the NT.

We see the same thing here as in Isaiah.

Act 17:26 and he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
Act 17:27 that they should seek God, if they might grope for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us,

I've already dealt with this in Post #71, and you did not reply to that part of the post.

Apologies to MrW and SH. I answered this before realizing it wasn't to me.

 

[John of Japan]

You have your opinion on how and why God will save someone and I see Him as more loving than you do it would seem as I see Him looking at the persons heart and not needing the words. You seem to be focused on the words.

How does my view portray God as "less loving" than yours? I believe Christ died for the entire world (John 3:16), every single human being who has ever lived. I believe that God does not just love, He is love itself in 1 John 4:8. I don't know how anyone could call that a statement of a less loving God. I admit that I myself often lack in love, but God never!

However, I also believe that "God is holy" (Ps. 99:9). Since He is holy, He must punish sin, which means there is a Hell for all who do not accept Jesus Christ as Savior. For those of us who do accept Christ, there is the blood of Christ which "cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).

But God does not joyfully send people to Hell. He does so because He is holy in addition to being loving. The worst sinner on earth goes to Hell over the blood of Jesus. "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?" (Ezek. 18:23).

2 Peter 3:9 says, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

God does not do things willy-nilly. How many times do I have to write it out before you get it. Those that respond in faith to His drawing them can and will be saved by Him.

But the drawing is from Christ and about Christ. I quoted this which you did not respond to: John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

In fact, you appear to have not even noticed what I wrote about God sending a missionary to anyone who sought Him.

It is also creation, and conviction of sin. Do you have a direct line to the mind of God. Do you have Gnostic insights to all the reasons for what He chooses to do?

Don't be ridiculous. I have the Word of God, which I have often quoted on this thread. And to call my view Gnostic is to ignore the vast majority of evangelicalism which believes exactly like I do. My view is the standard, Biblical view. Yours is the outlier.

When the bible says He desires all to be saved and that man has no excuse for not knowing Him and will judge people for not turning to Him in faith and you then add that He will only save in the way you think He can then it is you that is making God disingenuous.

What in the world are you talking about? My "view" (my position) is straight from the Bible, and is the standard evangelical view. My preacher father, grandfather, and great grandfather all believed and taught this position, as does any other evangelical preacher.

You are flat out denying that God can do as He chooses to do in regard to salvation.

As I have said many times those that do not freely trust in God will be lost. You have a problem with the other side of the equation those that do freely trust in Him will be saved.

Again you are being ridiculous, and trying to put words into my mouth.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Heb 11:4, Heb 11:5, Heb 11:7 I am sure you get the picture.

Then we can look at Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Amen! Wonderful verses. But this is the first time I've noticed you adding faith to the equation. The impression I've gotten until now is that God simply chooses lost people who have never heard of Christ to save them regardless of their condition.

Now, again I ask. Please give an example of a testimony of someone who came to salvation without Christ. I asked before and you ignored it.

Now I know you will not accept my words but perhaps you will trust these men:

From the merely controversial point of view these words have a value in ascribing the justification or salvation of the woman to faith, and not to love. Those who go deeper than controversy will find in them the further lesson that love pre-supposes faith. We cannot love any one—not even God—unless we first trust Him as being worthy of our love. Ellicott

Well of course. But this does not prove your view.

Thy faith hath been the instrument of receiving the salvation which is promised to those who repent. Go in peace. Clarke

...One who was reclining at the same couch, and partaking of the same hospitalities with themselves, assume the awful prerogative of 'even forgiving sins.' But so far from receding from this claim, or softening it down, our Lord only repeats it, with two precious additions: one, announcing what was the secret of the "forgiveness" she had experienced, and which carried "salvation" in its bosom-her "faith;" the other, a glorious dismissal of her in that "peace" which she had already felt, but is now assured she has His full warrant to enjoy! JFB

She was right there with Jesus. How is this salvation without belief in Jesus???

The questioning did not stop Jesus. He declared authoritatively that the woman was forgiven by God (your faith has saved you). NET+

Yes, because Jesus was there and she could trust Him.

Jesus concluded the incident by giving the woman a further word of encouragement and clarification. It was her faith, not her love, that had resulted in her salvation, of which her forgiveness was a part. Constable

There are two errors we must avoid as we interpret our Lord’s words. First, we must not conclude that this woman was saved by her tears and her gift. Jesus made it clear that it was her faith alone that saved her (Luk_7:50), for no amount of good works can pay for salvation (Tit_3:4-7). Wiersbe

Absolutely!! Saved by faith. Do you forget so soon how I quoted "The just shall live by faith" early in this thread?

It was not hearing the gospel message but faith in God the saved her.

Yes, absolutely. It is faith in God who saves. And, there is the passage in Rom. 10 you have yet to comment on: "How shall they hear without a preacher.

Isa 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

The same God {Jehovah = the existing one} that saved in the OT is the same God that saves in the NT.

Yes, absolutely, it is Jesus the 2nd person of the trinity. Without meeting Jesus no one can be saved.