Saving Faith a gift? Part Deux

[SovereignGrace]

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.[Romans 10:17 NASB]

Much is contained in this one verse. I personally believe this verse proves beyond a shadow of doubt that faith is a gift of God. Notice that it says where faith comes from..."and by hearing the word of Christ." Seeing that God's word is a gift to us, and faith comes by hearing it, faith is a gift of God. There is no way of escaping this fact.

 

[SavedByGrace]

If this is continuation of what I started in another thread, Is Saving Faith A Gift?, then you will see that I make it very clear, that Saving Faith is NOT only "Gifted" to the "elect".

I have always said, that all sinners must first be "convicted" by the Holy Spirit of their sins, and their need for Jesus Christ as their Saviour. In John 16:8-9, Jesus is clear, "And He (the Holy Spirit), when He is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on me". I understand "world" here for every single human being.

We see this in Acts chapter 2, where Peter preaches the first Gospel Message. "Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart" (verse 37). This "stabbing" in the heart, is no doubt the Work of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus had spoken of in John 16. This prompted these people to respond by asking, "what must we DO". To which Peter responds, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"

No sinner can ever "call on the Name of the Lord" for salvation, in and out of themselves. They must first be "convicted" by God the Holy Spirit, and then they can respond, as they did in Acts chapter 2. Or, as they did in Acts chapter 7, after Stephen had preached his Gospel Message, "Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth at him" (verse 54). In verse 51 we read that the "convicting" of the Holy Spirit, can be "resisted", by those who hear the Gospel, "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you".

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sure it is gifted only to the elect. Ppl act as if God holds out the gift of faith and those who receive it will be saved. Ermmm, that's works. If they must reach out to receive it, then they are working for it.

As far as "world" goes, 1 John 2:15 tells us if we(believers in context) love the "world", then the love of God is not in us. "World" does not mean "everybody whoever lived".

 

[SavedByGrace]

Sure it is gifted only to the elect. Ppl act as if God holds out the gift of faith and those who receive it will be saved. Ermmm, that's works. If they must reach out to receive it, then they are working for it.

As far as "world" goes, 1 John 2:15 tells us if we(believers in context) love the "world", then the love of God is not in us. "World" does not mean "everybody whoever lived".

You are confusing "work" as in doing something to "merit" salvation. With the sinner "doing" what the Lord requires of them, which is to repent and believe. No merit here just the obeying of what the Lord requires.

I can't understand why this is such a problem with the reformed?

 

[SovereignGrace]

This is the view of faith that many (sadly) have. They act as if God dangles faith out to all men w/o exception, and only those who are wise enough to reach out and take it, believe and are saved.


Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.[Romans 12:1-3 NASB]

 

[SavedByGrace]

This is the view of faith that many (sadly) have. They act as if God dangles faith out to all men w/o exception, and only those who are wise enough to reach out and take it, believe and are saved.


Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.[Romans 12:1-3 NASB]

Looks like a Calvinist

 

[SovereignGrace]

Getting back to the verse supplied in the OP...

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.[Romans 10:17 NASB]

Its clear to see that faith comes from the word of Christ, and both sides agree, AFAIK. This shows that faith is something outside of the lost. It says it comes by hearing the word of Christ. The bible is replete with verses that say "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." This shows that not everyone has these ears which are necessary to hear the word of Christ. That is why regeneration by the Holy Spirit precludes any hope of truly hearing the word of Christ.

 

[1689Dave]

I experienced Christ in my heart, rather unexpectedly one day, and the experience caused me to believe. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. I still have the witness of the Holy Spirit some 50+ years later and He still causes me to believe. No decision is necessary if you experience Christ and salvation.

 

[SavedByGrace]

More and more unbiblical nonsense is being posted here!

The delusion is that people have zero responsibility, an zero input into whether they are saved!

It is VERY CLEAR to those who are not blinded by "reformed theology", that the sinner has to make a DECISION. This requires the sinner to REPENT of their sins, and BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour.

Jesus tells the Jews that wanted to murder Him, "Yet you will not come to me, that you may have life" (John 5:40). Note, "YOU ARE UNWILLING" to come to Me, for what? that they might have eternal life, which is SALVATION! The FACT that these were UNWILLING, shows to those who can grasp the language, they the CHOSE not to!

In Acts 13:46, Paul was preaching to the Jews, about salvation in Jesus Christ, they "REJECTED IT", and "CONSIDERED THEMSELVES UNWORTHY OF ETERNAL LIFE". VERY CLEAR, that it was these JEWS who CHOSE to REJECT the Gospel Message, which could have saved them. NOT God, God did not REJECT them, or CONSIDER them UNWORTHY of eternal life.

Yet the reformed/calvinist, will keep on pushing FALSE teachings that the sinner need not REPENT and BELIEVE, even though God Incarnate says the OPPOSITE in Mark 1:15, which they twist to mean something else, or simply ignore. How many times have I quoted Acts 2:37-38, where is is VERY CLEAR, that those who heard the Gospel, are NOT automatically saved, but asked the Disciples, what must we DO! This is ACTION, this is a DECISION. To which Peter does NOT say, DO NOTHING, because if you are "elect", then you are already saved. Peter is very clear, REPENT, from your SINS. Again this is rejected by these who continue their FALSE "gospel", which can NEVER save 1 sinner!

 

[1689Dave]

More and more unbiblical nonsense is being posted here!

The delusion is that people have zero responsibility, an zero input into whether they are saved!

It is VERY CLEAR to those who are not blinded by "reformed theology", that the sinner has to make a DECISION. This requires the sinner to REPENT of their sins, and BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour.

Jesus tells the Jews that wanted to murder Him, "Yet you will not come to me, that you may have life" (John 5:40). Note, "YOU ARE UNWILLING" to come to Me, for what? that they might have eternal life, which is SALVATION! The FACT that these were UNWILLING, shows to those who can grasp the language, they the CHOSE not to!

In Acts 13:46, Paul was preaching to the Jews, about salvation in Jesus Christ, they "REJECTED IT", and "CONSIDERED THEMSELVES UNWORTHY OF ETERNAL LIFE". VERY CLEAR, that it was these JEWS who CHOSE to REJECT the Gospel Message, which could have saved them. NOT God, God did not REJECT them, or CONSIDER them UNWORTHY of eternal life.

Yet the reformed/calvinist, will keep on pushing FALSE teachings that the sinner need not REPENT and BELIEVE, even though God Incarnate says the OPPOSITE in Mark 1:15, which they twist to mean something else, or simply ignore. How many times have I quoted Acts 2:37-38, where is is VERY CLEAR, that those who heard the Gospel, are NOT automatically saved, but asked the Disciples, what must we DO! This is ACTION, this is a DECISION. To which Peter does NOT say, DO NOTHING, because if you are "elect", then you are already saved. Peter is very clear, REPENT, from your SINS. Again this is rejected by these who continue their FALSE "gospel", which can NEVER save 1 sinner!

Human faith cannot save no matter how much you think it does. Holy Spirit faith is supernatural, but unless you experience it you can only assume the arm of the flesh can save you.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Human faith cannot save no matter how much you think it does. Holy Spirit faith is supernatural, but unless you experience it you can only assume the arm of the flesh can save you.

define what FAITH is

 

[1689Dave]

define what FAITH is

See Hebrews 11:1. BTW, you are dragging us off-topic so I'm going to dismiss any of your further replies.

 

[SavedByGrace]

See Hebrews 11:1. BTW, you are dragging us off-topic so I'm going to dismiss any of your further replies.

# 9 was not directed to you, you chose to respond to it. it matters not if you respond or not!

 

[1689Dave]

“Now faith is the substance [hypostasis] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1)

Notice that the word substance is the same word used for person in Hebrews 1:3.

[Jesus] “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person [hypostasis], and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” (Hebrews 1:3)

So faith relates to things not seen in the same way Jesus relates to God who is also not seen. He is the express image of God. And so faith is the express image of what it represents.

Faith is not what many assume it to be. Something conjured up by the flesh. It is not of human origin. It is a supernatural presence that God produces in the elect as evidence of the reality for what it represents.

 

[DaveXR650]

If this is continuation of what I started in another thread, Is Saving Faith A Gift?, then you will see that I make it very clear, that Saving Faith is NOT only "Gifted" to the "elect".

I have always said, that all sinners must first be "convicted" by the Holy Spirit of their sins, and their need for Jesus Christ as their Saviour. In John 16:8-9, Jesus is clear, "And He (the Holy Spirit), when He is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on me". I understand "world" here for every single human being.

We see this in Acts chapter 2, where Peter preaches the first Gospel Message. "Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart" (verse 37). This "stabbing" in the heart, is no doubt the Work of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus had spoken of in John 16. This prompted these people to respond by asking, "what must we DO". To which Peter responds, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"

No sinner can ever "call on the Name of the Lord" for salvation, in and out of themselves. They must first be "convicted" by God the Holy Spirit, and then they can respond, as they did in Acts chapter 2. Or, as they did in Acts chapter 7, after Stephen had preached his Gospel Message, "Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth at him" (verse 54). In verse 51 we read that the "convicting" of the Holy Spirit, can be "resisted", by those who hear the Gospel, "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you".

I know the rhetoric and the responses will go downhill from here. But honestly, the above is a workable explanation of what most traditional Baptist churches teach.

 

[SovereignGrace]

*****Sigh*****

Not one single solitary person has ever been saved via making a decision. These ppl who hold to decisional regeneration conjured this up.

Calvinists do not deny ppl make choices. But ppl make choices that are in accord with their nature. The lost man, the unregenerate man, the man devoid of the Spirit of God, will never choose God because his fallen nature precludes him from doing so.


For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.[Romans 8:5-9]

Here Paul is addressing both classes of ppl..

The saved and the lost
The regenerate and the unregenerate

Those who are devoid of the Spirit of God…

Have their minds set upon the things of the flesh
They are hostile towards God, are at enmity(have an ill-will towards) God
They are not able to subject themselves to God’s law
They cannot please Him, being in the flesh.


Those who are born of God…

Have their minds set upon the things of the Spirit
They have peace with God, having been reconciled unto God
They are able to subject themselves to God’s law
They can please Him. How can they please Him? Because they being regenerate have faith and that pleases Him per Hebrews 11:6.


This is why regeneration occurs before they can choose God. The lost cannot choose God because they will not choose God in their fallen state, as they are hostile towards Him. In regeneration, faith and repentance are given, they exercise them and are saved. All this occurs simultaneously.

Now, getting to choosing…


But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.[John 1:12-13]

Notice who the ones are who received Him.

Was it those who were of blood? Naw
Was it those of the will of the flesh? Nope
Was it those if the will of man? Forgettabouit
Was it those born of God? Yahtzee

It was those who were born of God who received Christ. And this was not a localized event, but ever encompassing throughout the annals of time.


So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.[Romans 9:16]

Again, salvation is not based upon man exerting his will but upon the mercy of God. It is only after God has regenerated the dead in sins person that that person will ever choose God.

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,[Ephesians 1:18-20]

The same power that regenerated us is the very same power that rose Christ from the grave and ppl do not choose to have this same power given unto them.

It(faith) is solely the gift of God that is given to the elect and no one else.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yet the reformed/calvinist, will keep on pushing FALSE teachings that the sinner need not REPENT and BELIEVE,

This foolishness here is a flat out lie. Mark 1:15 says to repent and believe in the gospel. Calvinists teach it, believe it, preach it from the pulpit.

In Acts 13:46, Paul was preaching to the Jews, about salvation in Jesus Christ, they "REJECTED IT", and "CONSIDERED THEMSELVES UNWORTHY OF ETERNAL LIFE". VERY CLEAR, that it was these JEWS who CHOSE to REJECT the Gospel Message, which could have saved them. NOT God, God did not REJECT them, or CONSIDER them UNWORTHY of eternal life. VERY CLEAR, that it was these JEWS who CHOSE to REJECT the Gospel Message, which could have saved them. NOT God, God did not REJECT them, or CONSIDER them UNWORTHY of eternal life.

Correct, they chose to reject it. We’ve never said anything to the contrary. You’re just making things up as you go along lying about our beliefs and trying to smear our beliefs.

You quoted Acts of the Apostles 13:46 but left off…When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.[Acts of the Apostles 13:48]

 

[SavedByGrace]

Here is the blindness of some of the "reformed/calvinists"

God, they say, gives the elect saving faith, so that they can then believe in Him.

Simply put. God does the believing for the elect!!!

So, according to this WARPED theology, when God says to love Him, He first GIVES us His Love, and then we love Him

We are a bunch of brainless/heartless ROBOTS!

This is the UTTER UNBIBLICAL NONSENSE that these teach, and PRETEND that it comes from the Word of God!

 

[AustinC]

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.[Romans 10:17 NASB]

Much is contained in this one verse. I personally believe this verse proves beyond a shadow of doubt that faith is a gift of God. Notice that it says where faith comes from..."and by hearing the word of Christ." Seeing that God's word is a gift to us, and faith comes by hearing it, faith is a gift of God. There is no way of escaping this fact.

I posted these verses from Hebrews 4:1-3,6-7, which show faith as coming from God as well as that capacity to believe being caused by God.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God.

For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.”

Here we see that only those who actually hear the God, will believe. We also see God's righteous anger against those who cannot hear in declaring "they will never enter my rest."

It is interesting that sbg acknowledges humans cannot be saved unless God moves them to believe. Perhaps he doesn't understand that this is the elective work of God. He actually holds to election, yet he then keeps adding legal requirement after legal requirement to what God has done. He keeps demanding that God can only turn on the neon sign pointing to the gift of salvation, but humans must do all the work in order to actually open the gift.

 

[SavedByGrace]

faith as coming from God as well as that capacity to believe being caused by God.

like I have said many times. God does the believing for the elect!