Saving Faith: God’s Gift to Sinners or Sinners’ Gift to God?

[McCree79]

From the Bible:
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
--Peter was preaching to about 100,000 Jews out of which 3,000 were saved. I am sure that "pricked in their heart" that is "convicted of the Holy Spirit" applied to far more than just 3,000. But if you are not, let's move on.

In his sermon Stephen said:
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
--Their resistance of the Holy Spirit is obvious here, as Stephen observed not only here, but all throughout their history.

Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
--Great conviction of sin here--even to the point of gnashing of teeth.

Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
--The ultimate in resisting the Holy Spirit. It was a reaction to Stephen's vision of seeing Jesus standing on the right hand of the throne of God, and Stephen declaring his deity. They couldn't bear the testimony of Stephen's Spirit-filled message any longer. With a Satanic urge they cried aloud, deafened their ears, and murdered Stephen.
Let there be no doubt. They were convicted of the Holy Spirit but resisted Him.

As a pastor:
I have seen many under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, clutching the pew in front of them, knowing that they should come to Christ, but resisting the Spirit not wanting to yield to Him. Many times has this happened.

As a pastor you have seen people resist the outward call you provided. The ones who receive the inward call receive a new nature and will come forward.

 

[McCree79]

Cornelius was not saved. He did not know of Christ or his salvation.
Though he believed in Jehovah his trust was in his own good works.

Act 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
--God recognized his good works and prayers, but not for salvation, rather as a a "memorial." He still needed to hear the gospel. He knew nothing of Christ and his salvation.

He was not a full proselyte.
Act 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
--He was still uncircumcised.

The account that Peter gives notes that Cornelius knew nothing of Christ or salvation:
Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
--Based on this knowledge it would be impossible for him to be regenerated.
If you say he could have been regenerated, then it would have been possible for Osama Ben Laden or Sadam Hussein to have been regenerated. Who knows the way of the Spirit????????

So you acknowledge he had faith in God. You don't know he didn't have faith in God before Christ's death. He certainly had to to have faith him. Faith in the future Messiah. He certainly had to be regenerated to have such faith. To say he could not have a saving faith before the death of Christ is to say no one could have saving faith before Christ. Which is to contradict scripture.

 

[DHK]

Where does Scripture prohibit regeneration before hearing of Christ? I'll wait.

We have all these blessings "in Christ." There is a point in time when a person becomes "in Christ." It is a point that is generally called "conversion," at which point a person is regenerated, saved, sanctified, justified, adopted, made a child of God, and so much more. It is an event, not a process.
Those who believe it is a process believe salvation is by works and not of grace.
There was four days between the the angelic vision that Cornelius had and the time that Peter came and preached the gospel. Four days. When Peter preached the gospel, then Cornelius believed, at which time he was both regenerated and saved, sanctified and justified.
We don't have regenerated but unsaved people wandering around in this world. That concept is unheard of. Yet that is precisely what is being taught here by some Calvinists.

 

[McCree79]

I gave you a very detailed answer which ended with this example:

IOW, faith is innate. Do you really need a lesson in "how to believe."?

Faith is not innate sir. If it was everyone would have faith in God. Faith is belief and belief is formed by what we see, hear and feel. If faith is innate... If it is natural, we don't need preachers.

 

[McCree79]

I gave you a very detailed answer which ended with this example:

IOW, faith is innate. Do you really need a lesson in "how to believe."?

And you have not gave a clear answer. You are hiding your faith by works belief. You now say your faith is innate. So, nothing caused your faith, it was just natural? Naturally formed in you, by you???

 

[DHK]

So you acknowledge he had faith in God. You don't know he didn't have faith in God before Christ's death. He certainly had to to have faith him. Faith in the future Messiah. He certainly had to be regenerated to have such faith. To say he could not have a saving faith before the death of Christ is to say no one could have saving faith before Christ. Which is to contradict scripture.

You can have faith in your mother, but it won't save you!!
He had faith in the wrong God. The wrong God won't save you.
Only Jesus saves. This is post-cross, not pre-cross. The Jews had rejected the Messiah.
This is the first time the gospel went to the Gentiles.
Jesus went to the Jews. Far and few between did a few Gentiles come to him. One woman he addressed as a "dog."
The early church preached only to the Jews. There were only Jews present at Pentecost. Acts 10 marks the first time that the gospel went to the Gentiles.

 

[robustheologian]

Salvation, however, is a gift to be received by faith.
When one receives a gift, does he have to "generate" the faith by which he receives it?

Here's an illustration I once used with my class:

To get into [a theme park <—> heaven] you need [a ticket <—> justification]. You're [broke <—> spiritually dead] so you can't [afford <—> obtain] it. Your [older brother <—> Jesus] purchases the [ticket <—> justification] for you. He plans on [sending <—> giving] you the [ticket <—> justification] by way of [the postal service <—> grace]. There is just one problem...you don't have [a mailbox <—> faith] since you're [broke <—> spiritually dead]. Your [older brother <—> Jesus] than gets you [a P.O. box <—> faith]. Now, you have a way of receiving this [ticket <—> justification].

 

[McCree79]

Again, you need to study on your own "what is faith?"
Faith is not a work. That is contrary to what Paul said in Romans 4:4,5.

Would you hire me "for my faith"? What kind of wage would "my faith" bring?
Obviously it is not a work. It is in opposition to works.
Salvation, however, is a gift to be received by faith.
When one receives a gift, does he have to "generate" the faith by which he receives it?

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
--Even the unsaved know how to give good gifts to their children, Jesus said.
The children must receive those gifts by faith, faith that they are not evil gifts.
That is the application that Christ gave:
Matthew 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
--The child does not expect an evil gift--a serpent, a stone, etc. He receives in faith that it is a good gift from his parents. We receive in faith salvation that it is exactly what Christ promised.
What happened to sola fide?

I know faith is not work sir, apparently you do not. That is the only option you have left for yourself. Now you say faith is innate to cover the faith by works that you have been preaching on here. Faith is not natural. It is always formed.

 

[convicted1]

"what God allows" according to the Calvinist--only the elect will be saved; all others are damned.
"man's sinful nature" no free will; he can only choose evil.
Ergo--no free will.

Wow! You finally got it right! Kudos...

You're slow....errr slowly coming around...

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbs::thumbsup:

 

[robustheologian]

That concept is unheard of. Yet that is precisely what is being taught here by some Calvinists.

Unheard of? That's ignoring the teachings of the many theologians since the Reformation.

 

[McCree79]

You can have faith in your mother, but it won't save you!!
He had faith in the wrong God. The wrong God won't save you.
Only Jesus saves. This is post-cross, not pre-cross. The Jews had rejected the Messiah.
This is the first time the gospel went to the Gentiles.
Jesus went to the Jews. Far and few between did a few Gentiles come to him. One woman he addressed as a "dog."
The early church preached only to the Jews. There were only Jews present at Pentecost. Acts 10 marks the first time that the gospel went to the Gentiles.

So you know for a fact, that Cornelius did not have faith in God before the death of Jesus? You know that he could and if he did he was already regenerate. Any person who had saving faith before the death of Christ, was already regenerate. To say that saving faith before the death of Christ does not count, is to say Abraham's does not count. God will not revoke someone's saving faith.

 

[Protestant]

faith is innate.

Innate: “1. existing in one from birth; inborn; native”

By this one statement DHK has revealed his Pelagian theology.

Pelagius taught that man has an unimpaired moral ability to choose that which is spiritually good and possesses the free will, ability, and capacity to do that which is spiritually good. http://www.theopedia.com/Pelagianism

The doctrine that man has the natural capacity to that which is spiritually good, i.e., to believe on Jesus with a faith that justifies, is heresy, plain and simple, and is well outside orthodox biblical Christianity, including that of any Baptist creed.

I call on Pastor DHK to repent, praying the Lord for forgiveness, as well as for spiritual understanding as to why we need regeneration by the Spirit in the first place.

 

[jonathan.borland]

There are many passages demonstrating that faith is a faculty that must be exercised. People are rebuked for not exercising it, and others rewarded for exercising it. The idea of rewards/penalties for exercising/not exercising faith is foreign to most of the passages that deal with it if it is simply God decreeing this one to exercise faith and that one not to exercise it, in which case it is simply God rewarding himself for the faith he decreed one to exercise, and God punishing himself for the faith he decreed one not to exercise, which is self-contradictory.

Matt. 8:10 “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!"

Does Jesus commend the centurion because God gave him more faith than other men, or because the centurion exercised his faculty of faith to a greater proportion than others?


Matt. 9:2 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”

Does Jesus forgive the paralytic's sins because of God's faith, or because the friends and the paralytic exercised their faith in Jesus?


Matt. 9:22 “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.”

The woman's faith . . .


Matt. 9:29 **Then He touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith let it be to you.”

Again, Jesus responds to the exercise of faith.


Matt. 15:28 **Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.”

Ditto.


Mark 4:40 But He said to them, “Why are you so fearful? How is it that you have no faith?”

Is their lack of faith because God didn't grant them the ability or faculty to have faith at that moment? If so, then Jesus is deluding them by asking them the question.


Mark 10:52 **Then Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus on the road.

The blind man's faith . . .

 

[savedbymercy]

jb

There are many passages demonstrating that faith is a faculty that must be exercised.

Sure if you have been given that Spiritual faculty in New Birth, for Faith is a Fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 ! Men by nature have no faculty to please God in the flesh Rom 8:8 and Faith is a Faculty that pleases God Heb 11:6, hence by nature men cannot please God by exercising Faith !

 

[jonathan.borland]

jb



Sure if you have been given that Spiritual faculty in New Birth, for Faith is a Fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 ! Men by nature have no faculty to please God in the flesh Rom 8:8 and Faith is a Faculty that pleases God Heb 11:6, hence by nature men cannot please God by exercising Faith !

Perhaps you could correct me if I'm not paraphrasing you accurately: God condemns people for not exercising a faculty that he doesn't give them, and even implores people to use the faculty that he never gave them, before damning them.

 

[savedbymercy]

Perhaps you could correct me if I'm not paraphrasing you accurately: God condemns people for not exercising a faculty that he doesn't give them, and even implores people to use the faculty that he never gave them, before damning them.

Read what I posted. Lets review it. Go ahead begin !

 

[jonathan.borland]

LOL, I guess there's not a 10-page limit in this forum?

 

[PreachTony]

Perhaps you could correct me if I'm not paraphrasing you accurately: God condemns people for not exercising a faculty that he doesn't give them, and even implores people to use the faculty that he never gave them, before damning them.

You have hit on my biggest falling out with Calvinism, Jonathan. I don't understand how people can see God commanding men to do something (repent, or in your case here, exercise faith), but saying God must give man the ability to do it, then saying God withholds that ability from some, but still condemns them nonetheless because they didn't do what He never gave them the ability to do.



As for the page limit issue, there is a lot of leniency given in this forum compared to others concerning the page limit.

 

[savedbymercy]

LOL, I guess there's not a 10-page limit in this forum?

What Post 194 ? Is that too much for you to read ?

 

[Robert William]

You have hit on my biggest falling out with Calvinism, Jonathan. I don't understand how people can see God commanding men to do something (repent, or in your case here, exercise faith), but saying God must give man the ability to do it, then saying God withholds that ability from some, but still condemns them nonetheless because they didn't do what He never gave them the ability to do.



As for the page limit issue, there is a lot of leniency given in this forum compared to others concerning the page limit.

Tony, God does not owe anybody anything, neither does anybody deserve the love of God.

The natural man serves self and is his own god, and he does not want anything to do with God, because he hates him.

Watch this short video called "does God love everybody"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxZKJSNVgqM