You continue to ignore that Cornelius was a God-fearer. That he had reverence for God, who scripture say all natural men are of enimty of.
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Saving Faith: God’s Gift to Sinners or Sinners’ Gift to God?
- Thread starter Protestant
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Only those who rejected Christ were rejected. Those who denied the gospel were rejected. The judaizers that lived by the law are rejected. The law doesn't save. Faith does. Are you saving not one Jew or gentile had saving faith before Jesus died? That is a bold statement. Or that ones that had saving faith as Abraham did, lost it once Jesus died?
So, God does not give faith to the unregenerate. I agree with that. You have said before the Faith proceeds regeneration. How does one acquire or generate the faith? Faith is believing. God did not give him the belief, then he must have come up with it himself. By saying God does not give faith and that God does not regenerate prior to Faith. That leaves you with only one option. It came from man. The regenerate man generated it. If God doesn't regenerate before faith, if God doesn't give faith to the unregenerate(which is doesn't)....then how do we get faith. If not from regeneration, or if not from God, or if not from man.....then there is no faith and all are lost.
Your statements have left you with one option. You said God does not give the unregenerate faith. That does not deny that the man does not come up with of the on his own. If you deny that as well, along with regeneration.... What is left?
How do you get your faith? Regeneration or you generated/believed against your enslaved sinful nature. That does and can do no good?
If you don't know the answer to your own question then you need to take time from this board and go and study what faith is.
What kind of faith do little children "generate" as you put it?
Yet Jesus said: "Except ye be as these children you cannot see the kingdom of God."
What was he referring to? He was referring to their faith. They had very simplistic trusting faith. For example they would go to their parents for protection, provision, guidance, etc., and not to some stranger. They knew innately who they could trust, even from a very young age. Anyone who has had children knows this fact.
Jesus is saying that you must have this very trusting faith in him in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. It is not "generated" from anything. It is innate. It is confidence, trust.
1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
--This is faith. It is confidence in Christ.
Faith always has an object. The object of our faith must be Christ.
The object of Cornelius's faith was not Christ; it was the God of the Jews. Judaism was a false religion. They had rejected Christ.
Every person in the world has faith in someone or something. What do you put your faith in? I am sure you put your faith in lots of people and lots of things. It is the object of your faith that is important.
I put faith or confidence in my wife. Faith is built through a relationship. The longer the relationship the more confidence (or faith) I am able to put in her, that she will keep her word, do what she promised to do, etc. With the passing of time the relationship becomes stronger.
So it is with the believer. The longer the relationship, the more he spends in God's Word, the closer he draws to him, the more faith (confidence) he is able to put in his Word, and his promises.
But with the unbeliever he must understand the truth of the Gospel. Is it true? It is not like the myth of the other religions like Hinduism; the fatalism of Islam. It is based on the fact of the resurrection. One must first be convinced by the mind--the facts of the gospel. Then he can genuinely put his faith in that message as the Holy Spirit works through His Word bringing him into a right relationship with Christ. Yes, he must see his sinful self in need of a Savior. That is all part of the understanding of the gospel--why the sinner needs a savior; why Christ died for our sins. But it is the sinner that makes that choice--to receive or to reject the gift of God that brings salvation. It is not irresistible. Many have resisted the grace of God. Many have resisted the Holy Spirit as He has worked in the hearts of men drawing them to Him.
Paul simply said: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
He didn't have to explain where the faith came from.
The jailer already knew what it meant to believe.
In Acts 10:30, Cornelius said:
"Four days ago I was fasting until this hour..."
Does regeneration take place four days before salvation?
Do we have regenerated but unsaved people walking around? That thought is absurd.
Rather, regeneration and salvation take place simultaneously.
Cornelius had not yet heard of Christ, and therefore could not have been regenerated. He was not a devout Christian but a devout Jew, part of a false religion. Of course he was unregenerated. To read "regenerated" into this passage is to butcher the scripture, not to rightly divide it, and that only on the basis of one's pre-conceived ideology based on a 16th century reformer. That is pitiful. I thought you all believed in sola scriptura. What happened?
I have answered many of times. Faith comes from the word,in belief in the word of Christ after the believer has been regenerated, so the word of Christ is no longer folly. Faith is only in the God regenerated believer. It is only after regeneration that the believer can do anything to please God.
Now answer the question and stop dodging.
How did you get your faith?
Now answer the question and stop dodging.
How did you get your faith?
Did no one having saving faith like Abraham during Christ walking the earth , before Christ died? Was the saving faith discounted upon death? Or did God make sure the believer's of old heard the gospel of new. I honestly don't know the answer.....i will have to study that.....just giving us something to think about.
You still keep stating that Calvinist believe man has no will to make his own choice. You insist that they portrait God as a puppet master. Reformed theology has never taught anything, but the man has free will inside his nature. Freedom to make choice within his sinful or regenerated nature. He choose Pepsi or Coke, Ford or Chevy and he chooses God, after God chooses him for regeneration.
I am being honest, and am not trying to insult DHK. I think you have a miss understanding of what reformed theology is. That is why I posted the link. What do you have to lose by reading it? I'm not trying to convert you. Just to give understanding what it is. If you disagree with reformed theology based upon what it really is...so be it. I respect that. It doesn't give or take away your salvation....so I don't care. I just would like for you to have a better understanding of it.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Your whole post is spot on! This last small summary is so simple and perfect. EVERYBODY knows what is meant by BELIEVE!!!! God placed having faith within the very makeup of His design in Adam. Everyone is born with the natural ability to have faith and this is exercised from a very very young age. As you pointed out, it is the OBJECT of ONE"S faith that is the issue.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Protestant:
On the contrary, these verses prove your initial postulate: The Lord never changes.
I simply added the fact that evil man has also never changed. He remains evil.
By citing Deut. 30 & 1 Peter 1 I have proved that the Lord’s plan of salvation has never changed: Whether it be OT or NT it is by the miraculous grace of God that evil man’s heart is circumcised, resulting in the new birth, and therefore he becomes a new creation……a spiritual creation who is now capable and willing to love the Lord God with all his heart, soul, mind and body.
The old man born in Adam is a rebellious, self-seeking, God-hating, carnal-thinking man whose faith and fruit is only evil.
Rather than allow all men to die in their sins resulting in eternal damnation, our gracious, merciful God has determined to save certain specific men from the punishment their sins rightly deserve.
By sending His Son in the flesh that He might live a life of perfection which Adam, our representative, did not do, the Father now had a sinless representative who could be punished for our sins: the just for the unjust, that we might escape the just punishment we deserved.
But having Christ die in our stead was not enough to save His Elect.
Christ not only had to pay our sin debt in full, satisfying divine justice, but He had to purchase all the gifts necessary unto salvation.
Why? Because men are evil and can produce nothing good, only evil.
Therefore, man’s inherent corrupt evil nature must be changed.
That ‘change’ is the new birth which results in a spiritual new creation when we are made alive in Christ.
Christ’s blood was more than sufficient payment to release all the spiritual blessings necessary to salvation: repentance, faith, holiness, sanctification, perseverance, good works, love of the brethren, belief in the truth, etc., etc.
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
The ‘all things’ includes all the necessary gifts and requirements by which we can be saved, faith included.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Quite honestly, this is Christianity 101. Why you and others on this board constantly reject this fundamental Bible truth taught from OT through the NT is quite puzzling.
It seems as if you and your fellow Synergists wish to retain some sense of sovereignty and self will over the Sovereign Lord, as do all men who resist His Lordship.
Who then can be saved?
And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
It is impossible for a carnal heart to produce anything righteous, including faith that justifies.
Once this paramount spiritual truth is received and believed, then all other questions, including those which you have raised, can be answered.
For out of the [uncircumcised, unregenerate] heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
But out of the circumcised, regenerate heart proceeds love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance:
On the contrary, these verses prove your initial postulate: The Lord never changes.
I simply added the fact that evil man has also never changed. He remains evil.
By citing Deut. 30 & 1 Peter 1 I have proved that the Lord’s plan of salvation has never changed: Whether it be OT or NT it is by the miraculous grace of God that evil man’s heart is circumcised, resulting in the new birth, and therefore he becomes a new creation……a spiritual creation who is now capable and willing to love the Lord God with all his heart, soul, mind and body.
The old man born in Adam is a rebellious, self-seeking, God-hating, carnal-thinking man whose faith and fruit is only evil.
Rather than allow all men to die in their sins resulting in eternal damnation, our gracious, merciful God has determined to save certain specific men from the punishment their sins rightly deserve.
By sending His Son in the flesh that He might live a life of perfection which Adam, our representative, did not do, the Father now had a sinless representative who could be punished for our sins: the just for the unjust, that we might escape the just punishment we deserved.
But having Christ die in our stead was not enough to save His Elect.
Christ not only had to pay our sin debt in full, satisfying divine justice, but He had to purchase all the gifts necessary unto salvation.
Why? Because men are evil and can produce nothing good, only evil.
Therefore, man’s inherent corrupt evil nature must be changed.
That ‘change’ is the new birth which results in a spiritual new creation when we are made alive in Christ.
Christ’s blood was more than sufficient payment to release all the spiritual blessings necessary to salvation: repentance, faith, holiness, sanctification, perseverance, good works, love of the brethren, belief in the truth, etc., etc.
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
The ‘all things’ includes all the necessary gifts and requirements by which we can be saved, faith included.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Quite honestly, this is Christianity 101. Why you and others on this board constantly reject this fundamental Bible truth taught from OT through the NT is quite puzzling.
It seems as if you and your fellow Synergists wish to retain some sense of sovereignty and self will over the Sovereign Lord, as do all men who resist His Lordship.
Who then can be saved?
And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
It is impossible for a carnal heart to produce anything righteous, including faith that justifies.
Once this paramount spiritual truth is received and believed, then all other questions, including those which you have raised, can be answered.
For out of the [uncircumcised, unregenerate] heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
But out of the circumcised, regenerate heart proceeds love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance:
If you truly study out regeneration, you will not find it anywhere in the scriptures pre-cross. Calvinism simply decided it must be because if it is not then the whole Calvinism theology is destroyed.
John 3:13 - "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven".
Ask yourself, why did the true believers pre-cross have to wait in Paradise until Jesus Christ was glorified? They were not allowed in heaven yet, Jesus said at the time, no man has ever ascended up to heaven.
John 7:38-39 - "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
Psalm 68:16 - "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
Do we understand the whole point of Jesus Christ coming to preach the kingdom of God was at hand??? Do we understand a BIG change was coming??? Do we understand God was about to DWELL in man, not just speak through man with Holy Spirit power, but actually do a NEW work and create a NEW creature??? Actually become united with God, two becoming one new creature, Christ IN YOU!!!!!!!!
Calvinism says NO, it's the same ole same ole. No big change, nothing different, Jesus just had to be sacrificed for the sins of His sheep, otherwise, nothing new.........
Do we understand WHY Christ could not dwell in a sin ridden man??? Why Christ could not join Himself with man pre-cross??? The sin debt had to be properly paid. Jesus had to be sacrificed for sin. ONLY then could Christ enter into man and become one with man!!! Bulls and goats didn't cut it.
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Protestant
Well-Known Member
It doesn't RT.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jesus does not specify time, place or circumstance.
He does, however, specify the absolute sovereignty of the Spirit (aka the 'wind') who cannot be controlled by anyone --- no matter how religious.
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