Saying what you believe is clearer than saying Calvinist

[Amy.G]

Why do you find an honest question offensive?

First of all, it's not honest. B4L has been on this board long enough for you to know he believes that salvation is of the Lord.

Anyone who says salvation is not of the Lord is most certainly not a Christian. To ask this question is basically asking if he is a Christian.

And even tho you say you accidentally left off the question mark, I really doubt it. You are a very intelligent man. I think you wrote what you meant, especially considering you followed it with a statement to me saying that you assume I don't care for the lost.
Calvinists love to say that non Cals deny God's sovereignty or claim salvation is all of man. It's par for the course around here.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And, likely, you will not ever really get to understand it because of all the flack that flies around about the position. Especially here on the board.

It JUST has to be something evil... :BangHead:

you know, your right.....after awhile I just leave them alone. It's not a competition. Who's right & who's wrong....if it was that clear, then it would have been addressed in the 16th Century. But here it is today...going down the same road. Same old song, same old dance. You'd have thought wisdom would overtaken the situation. Guess not. Im convinced now doctrine divides. Here is the line in the sand. You go your way & I will go mine. Have a nice day.

 

[Baptist4life]

Thanks Amy!

 

[Iconoclast]

I'd like to know how Calvinists get around this verse:

2 Peter 3:9 (King James Version)

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Good question.
No need to get around it.....we believe it.
God intends to save each and every sinner that he has planned to save.
Jesus died a covenant death for them. In scripture they are called;
wheat
sheep
elect
for whom He did foreknow
my sheep
the Israel of God
the church
the believing ones

In this passage.....to-usward

not all of the elect are saved yet, so we preach to all.

God is very willing that many perish......mt7:21-24 rev20 mt25 depart from me

God's will is always accomplished:thumbs:

the any and the all are qualified by the whole chapter,the whole letter...it is a promise of God to His elect...in contrast to the ungodly scoffers

 

[Amy.G]

Thanks Amy!

You're welcome.

 

[Winman]

Look who is being address. "to us-ward" to "toward us." All the elect (us) will come to Christ and none (of us) will ever be lost.

How can anybody allow themselves to believe such nonsense? Why would God be longsuffering with a person he has elected to regenerate?
Does God enjoy suffering?

Let's say my son has a serious drug problem. He is in and out of jail, he steals from his loved ones, and has nearly died from overdoses several times.

Now I as his father have the supernatural ability to zap my son and immediately take away his drug addictions forever.

Now how long would I allow my son, myself, and all his family to suffer with this terrible affliction?

NOT ONE SECOND!

I have seen this ridiculous argument several times. For the life of me I cannot understand how intelligent people can allow themselves to be deceived by such foolishness. Of all the many absurd and illogical answers Calvinists give to explain away scripture, this has got to be one of the worst. I would be embarrassed to give an answer like this.

 

[Baptist4life]

I have seen this ridiculous argument several times. For the life of me I cannot understand how intelligent people can allow themselves to be deceived by such foolishness. Of all the many absurd and illogical answers Calvinists give to explain away scripture, this has got to be one of the worst. I would be embarrassed to give an answer like this.

Amen! :applause:

 

[glfredrick]

How can anybody allow themselves to believe such nonsense? Why would God be longsuffering with a person he has elected to regenerate?
Does God enjoy suffering?

Let's say my son has a serious drug problem. He is in and out of jail, he steals from his loved ones, and has nearly died from overdoses several times.

Now I as his father have the supernatural ability to zap my son and immediately take away his drug addictions forever.

Now how long would I allow my son, myself, and all his family to suffer with this terrible affliction?

NOT ONE SECOND!

I have seen this ridiculous argument several times. For the life of me I cannot understand how intelligent people can allow themselves to be deceived by such foolishness. Of all the many absurd and illogical answers Calvinists give to explain away scripture, this has got to be one of the worst. I would be embarrassed to give an answer like this.

You are suggesting that if God chooses to act on His own timetable that we need to intereceed and take matters into our own hands.

That is rather a presumptuous way of looking at God who caused these words to be written:

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Romans 8:28-30 (ESV)

 

[Baptist4life]

Just so I know who I'm talking to, how many of you on here ARE Calvinists?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Here's a study that my step-grandfather wrote about Calvinism.

http://www.biblebelieversbaptist.net/primitive_baptist.html

With all due respects to your grandfather, he confuses eternal salvation with gospel salvation and vice-versa in most of his article, and parts of his rebuttals, so I don't think he truly understands Primitive Baptist doctrines, and if he doesn't, then he cannot claim to be an authority on Primitive Baptists, or doctrines.

Also, one woman, Jettie Harper, out of so many primitive baptists, in a primitive baptist hotbed (your grandfather's description) comes out and wonders how to get saved, and your grandfather thinks Primitive Baptists are misleading people ?

Well, how do you get saved ?
Is there such a thing as a how, or is it more a Person.
Is it what she does, or is it what Somebody else did for her.

What are you going to do with this Scripture: Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 2
3 And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So, she can pray the sinner's prayer all she wants, accept Jesus Christ everyday upon waking up and before bed, and in the end, the question is still : Does Christ know her ?

The Father's will is that we believe on Christ when we hear the gospel of our salvation. Not on what we should do, or on what others teach us about how to be saved.

There is no how to be when it comes to our eternity.
The sinner can rely on only one Person. Not a method. Not a system.
I don't think your grandfather, or Jettie, for that matter, understands that the work of redemption is OVER, unless there is anything in the Bible that says Christ MUST be crucified over and over again for every sinner that repents and accepts Him.

It is over, done, finished, accomplished, and all who are to benefit from His finished work are already benefited. We can argue about grace and works, heaven and hell, doctrine and heresy, all we want until we're blue in the face, nothing will change the fact that Christ is seated in glory, the cross is past, the tomb is empty, and all whose names He wrote in His book of life from the foundation of the world are found, redeemed, and safe.

Your grandfather's article is just another article that purports to refute Primitive Baptists, not Calvinism.

 

[Tom Butler]

OK, I'll play the _____ 's (fill in the blank) Advocate again.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.​

Here are a group of folk who were "bought" by the Lord yet suffered destruction.​

Same inspired author, same book, same root word apoluo.

These (though "bought" by the Lord) he speaks of as having frustrated the will of our Sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient, omipresent Father in heaven as did the false prophets of old.

The point is that they were "bought" yet somehow they are scheduled to undergo destuction (perish).

Remember, I'm assuming the role of the _____'s (fill in the blank) Advocate.

HankD​

II Peter 2:1 can't be exegeted in a brief summary. Since my time is short today, I'll leave a couple of questions to consider.

If the Lord bought the false teachers, did he not purchase them? Does he not own them? Did he not redeem them? If he did, could he not keep them? So, weren't they saved? And if they were, did he lose them when they denied him?
If they were not saved, then why did he buy them, own them, redeem them?

Now you can see why there is no one-paragraph exegesis of this passage.

 

[TCassidy]

First of all, it's not honest. B4L has been on this board long enough for you to know he believes that salvation is of the Lord.

But I don't know that. All I know is what he has posted in this thread and he has said that Particular Redemption, the historic Baptist doctrine of salvation, is "heresy."

Anyone who says salvation is not of the Lord is most certainly not a Christian. To ask this question is basically asking if he is a Christian.

I disagree. I would not question any Arminian's salvation based on them believing salvation is synergistic as opposed to monergistic. I believe that person is wrong, but not lost.

Amy, you chided me, unfairly, for questioning someone's salvation because of their soteriology, which was untrue, but you just questioned the salvation of all synergists.

And even tho you say you accidentally left off the question mark, I really doubt it.

So now, in addition to questioning the salvation of synergists, you are also calling me a liar because of a typo?

You are a very intelligent man. I think you wrote what you meant, especially considering you followed it with a statement to me saying that you assume I don't care for the lost.

Yes, your laughing about my statement of salvation being of the LORD caused me to question your love for the lost. I don't think a person's salvation is a laughing matter. If you do, so be it.

Calvinists love to say that non Cals deny God's sovereignty or claim salvation is all of man.

I don't know of any who do and I have been in the ministry for almost 40 years.

It's par for the course around here.

I have to agree that dishonesty is par for the course, unfortunately.

 

[Winman]

You are suggesting that if God chooses to act on His own timetable that we need to intereceed and take matters into our own hands.

That is rather a presumptuous way of looking at God who caused these words to be written:

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Romans 8:28-30 (ESV)

No, I am saying it is a very foolish argument. What do the scriptures say?

"To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts."

God is very patient and longsuffering towards sinners, and gives them many opportunities to repent, but his desire is that a man repent and believe the gospel TODAY.

 

[Baptist4life]

........he has said that Particular Redemption, the historic Baptist doctrine of salvation, is "heresy.".............. I have to agree that dishonesty is par for the course, unfortunately.

TCassidy, apparently so, since I never said this. Particular Redemption is NOT an historic Baptist doctrine. It's a Primitive Baptist doctrine. I'm not Primitive Baptist.


BTW, I've been a born again Christian since age 11, but I do not believe in Calvinism.


"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Revelation 22:17). AMEN!!

 

[pinoybaptist]

TCassidy, apparently so, since I never said this. Particular Redemption is NOT an historic Baptist doctrine. It's a Primitive Baptist doctrine. I'm not Primitive Baptist.


BTW, I've been a born again Christian since age 11, but I do not believe in Calvinism.


"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Revelation 22:17). AMEN!!

you're wrong. Particular Redemption is another name for Limited Atonement (the L in "TULIP"), so it is not just a Primitive Baptist doctrine.
Why do you guys always talk like you're authorities on Primitive Baptists ?

 

[TCassidy]

Just so I know who I'm talking to, how many of you on here ARE Calvinists?

I am an historic Particular Baptist. I try to avoid the term "Calvinist" just because of what we see in this thread. Those who have very little understanding of the Heads of Doctrine as compiled at the Synod of Dort often launch into tirades exposing their ignorance of that which they think they oppose. So, here is what I believe, sans labels.

Total Depravity. Every lost person is not as bad as he could be, but all of man, body, soul, and spirit, has been ruined by the fall and thus no part of man is worthy of salvation.

Unconditional Election. There is nothing good enough in me to merit salvation. I meet no condition that would cause God to esteem me better than my neighbor. As I do not know the mind of God I don't what conditions He set within Himself regarding whom He elected unto salvation.

Limited Atonement. The atonement which Christ offered to God on my behalf is sufficient to save every person who ever existed or will exist, but it is applied only to believers. Sufficient for all, efficient only for believers.

Irresistible Grace. God's regenerating Grace changed me from an enemy of God to a friend of God and made His salvation so precious to me that I could not resist His grace.

Perseverance of the Saints. God has preserved that which He saved unto eternal life, and will never lose one of His own.

So, let's start at the first point. What do you disagree with under "T" above?

 

[Amy.G]

But I don't know that. All I know is what he has posted in this thread and he has said that Particular Redemption, the historic Baptist doctrine of salvation, is "heresy."

I searched his posts in this thread and he did not say that.

Amy, you chided me, unfairly, for questioning someone's salvation because of their soteriology, which was untrue, but you just questioned the salvation of all synergists.

I never questioned anyone's salvation. Prove it.

Yes, your laughing about my statement of salvation being of the LORD caused me to question your love for the lost.

I never laughed. What are you talking about?

I don't think a person's salvation is a laughing matter. If you do, so be it.

I don't either. Show me where I laughed.

 

[HankD]

How can anybody allow themselves to believe such nonsense? Why would God be longsuffering with a person he has elected to regenerate?
Does God enjoy suffering?

Hi Winman

Being a MugWumpist, (lucky me, I can provoke either side Mug or Wump) I can empathize with your post.

No He doesn't enjoy it, however He often times requires it:

1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.​

HankD​

 

[Baptist4life]

1 John 2:2 (King James Version)

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[TCassidy]

TCassidy, apparently so, since I never said this. Particular Redemption is NOT an historic Baptist doctrine. It's a Primitive Baptist doctrine. I'm not Primitive Baptist.

No, Particular Redemption is an historic Baptist doctrine. Just look at history. John Spilsbury, around 1633, pastored a Particular Baptist Church in London. The London Confession of Faith of 1689 is a Particular Baptist creed. John Bunyon, author of "Pilgrims Progress" was a Particular Baptist. By 1658 Particular Baptists had spread all over England. In 1637 they migrated to what would become the United States and founded several Baptist congregations and, eventually, the Philadelphia Association.

Primitive Baptists, on the other hand, grew out of the missionary / anti-missionary controversy that divided Baptists of America in the early part of the 19th century.

BTW, I've been a born again Christian since age 11, but I do not believe in Calvinism.

That is fine. Many good and godly people are saved but are not Calvinists. Just as many good and godly people are saved but are Amillenialists. Salvation does not imply you are a knowledgeable theologian. Only that you are redeemed.