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Saying what you believe is clearer than saying Calvinist

Baptist4life

Well-Known Member
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In England, the Calvinist Baptists were known as "Particular", because of their belief in a limited atonement, while the non-Calvinists were known as "General" for their belief that the atonement was available to all. When the Baptists began to multiply in America, the name "Regular" was applied to the Calvinists, while non-Calvinists (especially in the Virginia, North Carolina , South Carolina and Georgia regions) were called "Separate".

Both groups adhered basically to the Philadelphia Confession of Faith which was in essence the same Confession as the Calvinistic London Confession, but the Separates in America, rejected the "Particular" or limited atonement flavor of the document. For this of course, the Separates were labeled "Arminian". The controversy between the Regulars and Separates was in full bloom in the 1780's in Virginia. Armitage tells us how it was resolved:

"The Calvinistic controversy had been imported by the General and Particular Baptists, who had come from England. For a time they lived happily with each other, probably held together by the cohesive power of opposition from without. But, by and by, as they became stronger, they dropped the names of General and Particular and conducted their doctrinal contest under the name of Separate and Regular Baptist. Samuel Harriss, John Waller and Jeremiah Walker were leaders of the Arminian side, while E. Craig, William Murphy and John Williams were leaders on the Calvinistic side; but while they conducted their debates with great freedom and utterance, they also clung to each other with brotherly love. Having suffered so much together in a common cause, the thought of separation was too painful to be endured. They, therefore, treated each other with all the cordiality of Christian gentlemen, or as Mr. Spurgeon would say, they agreed to keep two bears in their house, 'bear and forbear;' and the result was, after a long and full discussion in 1787, they agreed to know each other, and to be known to others, as The United Baptist Churches of Christ in Virginia." History of the Baptists by Thomas Armitage, 1887, p.780-781

Historically speaking, they did not have to be either, or they could be one or another. Is it becoming clear to you? Please don't tell the world that Baptists are historically "Calvinist". You would not be in agreement with Crosby, Benedict. or Armitage.

http://www.learnthebible.org/are-baptists-historically-calvinists.html
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
I searched his posts in this thread and he did not say that.
Post #6: Un-Biblical is what it is.
I never questioned anyone's salvation. Prove it.
Post #11: Anyone who says salvation is not of the Lord is most certainly not a Christian.
I never laughed. What are you talking about?
I don't either. Show me where I laughed.
Post # 9: The sleep icon.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
II Peter 2:1 can't be exegeted in a brief summary. Since my time is short today, I'll leave a couple of questions to consider.

If the Lord bought the false teachers, did he not purchase them? Does he not own them? Did he not redeem them? If he did, could he not keep them? So, weren't they saved? And if they were, did he lose them when they denied him?
If they were not saved, then why did he buy them, own them, redeem them?

Now you can see why there is no one-paragraph exegesis of this passage.

Yes Tom. It's not an easy passage.

Thanks
HankD
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Historically speaking, they did not have to be either, or they could be one or another.
Historically, in England, the Particular Baptists outnumbered the General Baptists by almost 5 to 1.
Is it becoming clear to you?
It always has been clear to me. I taught Church History at the Seminary level for over 25 years. Particular Redemption is an historic Baptist doctrine. The Primitive Baptists cam along much later and are an American phenomenon. :)
 

Baptist4life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Historically, in England, the Particular Baptists outnumbered the General Baptists by almost 5 to 1.
Unhuh.
Let us turn to Thomas Armitage, respected Baptist historian from America to give us the details of the London Confession:

"By 1643, the Calvinist Baptist Churches in and about London had increased to seven, while the non-Calvinistic Churches numbered thirty-nine, forty-six in all. The English Calvinistic Churches, together with a French Church of the some faith, eight in all, issued a Confession of Faith in 1643." --History of the Baptists by Thomas Armitage, 1887, p.460.

Armitage, in stating the number of Churches in London, tells us that the Calvinist type Baptist Churches were clearly in the minority.

http://www.learnthebible.org/are-bap...alvinists.html
 

Winman

Active Member
Hi Winman

Being a MugWumpist, (lucky me, I can provoke either side Mug or Wump) I can empathize with your post.

No He doesn't enjoy it, however He often times requires it:

1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.​

HankD​

Hank, we are not talking about believers suffering for Christ's sake, we are talking about God being longsuffering toward sinners that they should repent and believe.

There is nothing in scripture to indicate God wants to put off the salvation of a sinner for a moment. Jesus constantly warned people to be ready, as he would come when they did not expect.

So, if God imposes faith on a man, why would he wait and be longsuffering when he can regenerate them now?
 

pinoybaptist

Active Member
Site Supporter
1 John 2:2 (King James Version)

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

the Bible dictionary defines "propitiation" :

In 1 John 2:2; 4:10, Christ is called the "propitiation for our sins." Here a different Greek word is used (hilasmos). Christ is "the propitiation," because by his becoming our substitute and assuming our obligations he expiated our guilt, covered it, by the vicarious punishment which he endured. (Comp. Hebrews 2:17, where the expression "make reconciliation" of the A.V. is more correctly in the R.V. "make propitiation.")

also,

Noah Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language
1. (n.) The act of appeasing the wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious. 2. (n.) That which propitiates; atonement or atoning sacrifice; specifically, the influence or effects of the death of Christ in appeasing the divine justice, and conciliating the divine favor.

So, are you saying that every cannibal that ever lived, every coldblooded killer, rapist, incestuous individual, every God rejecting member of Adam's posterity have had their sins propitiated for, yet many are still ending up in hell and damnation ?

How can that be ?
 

Winman

Active Member
So, are you saying that every cannibal that ever lived, every coldblooded killer, rapist, incestuous individual, every God rejecting member of Adam's posterity have had their sins propitiated for, yet many are still ending up in hell and damnation ?

I can't speak for B4L, but I believe that, Yes.

Jesus's work on the cross paid the sins of all men, but only those who believe can appropriate this gift.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

In verse 1 we see the promise is to everyone, but a person can come short of it. How? Unbelief.

We see this in many verses.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

You could be dying of thirst and I could give you a big glass of water. I have supplied the remedy that will keep you from dying. But you must drink (believe) the water for it to help you.
 

Baptist4life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I can't speak for B4L, but I believe that, Yes.

Jesus's work on the cross paid the sins of all men, but only those who believe can appropriate this gift.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

In verse 1 we see the promise is to everyone, but a person can come short of it. How? Unbelief.

We see this in many verses.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

You could be dying of thirst and I could give you a big glass of water. I have supplied the remedy that will keep you from dying. But you must drink (believe) the water for it to help you.

I totally agree.:thumbs:
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
From James B. Taylor's (the first Secretary of the Foreign Mission Board of the SBC) Virginia Baptist Ministers (1859), s.v. "David Jessee":

In the early part of his ministry [Elder David Jessee] advocated the high-toned Calvinistic view of that subject; but in the latter years of his life he supported the view now generally adopted by the Baptists, viz., that the atonement is general in its nature.
 

pinoybaptist

Active Member
Site Supporter
I can't speak for B4L, but I believe that, Yes.

Jesus's work on the cross paid the sins of all men, but only those who believe can appropriate this gift.

So you're saying that the blood of Glory's Lamb, the blood Christ shed, Christ died on that cross, suffered all that pain and humiliation, conquered death, and FINALLY, the effectivity, the efficacy of the blood He shed and the pain He underwent, DEPENDS on the sinner's ability to believe in Him ?

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

In verse 1 we see the promise is to everyone, but a person can come short of it. How? Unbelief.

What you guys cannot get, and will never get from what I can see here, is that Jesus Christ's redemption of His people is not hinged on anything else on the part of the sinners He has redeemed, but stands alone and apart from any work or contribution from the redeemed. He redeemed BECAUSE it was His will to do so. He died because HE gave up the ghost, and not from any blow that any weapon can inflict on Him.

You keep quoting Scriptures that were written by believers TO believers and say that applies to every soul on this planet.
 

Baptist4life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I asked this before and no one answered.

Just so I know who I'm talking to, how many of you on here ARE Calvinists?
 

Amy.G

New Member
So you're saying that the blood of Glory's Lamb, the blood Christ shed, Christ died on that cross, suffered all that pain and humiliation, conquered death, and FINALLY, the effectivity, the efficacy of the blood He shed and the pain He underwent, DEPENDS on the sinner's ability to believe in Him ?
No. It was done independent of man, but it was done so that man would have a way to God. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. But it was done to draw all men to Christ.
John 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


You keep quoting Scriptures that were written by believers TO believers and say that applies to every soul on this planet.
Was this written to believers?
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

If so, do you believe a Christian can lose his salvation?
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Was this written to believers?
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

If so, do you believe a Christian can lose his salvation?
Peter was writing a warning regarding false teachers. The false prophets falsely claimed to be saved, IE, "bought with a price" but in fact were not saved men. Peter is being somewhat sarcastic by saying these false prophets, who claim to be Christians, deny the very Lord they say bought them and that denial brings on them swift damnation. You can't just lift a verse out of its context and use it as a proof text. You have to read it in the context of Peter's teaching regarding the reprobate nature of those false prophets. :)
 

Baptist4life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I answered you.

You said you were a "Particular Baptist". You further stated you don't like to use the term "Calvinist". Why not? If you think Calvinism is correct, why not use it? The term "Christian" isn't well accepted either in more and more places. You going to start calling yourself something else so you don't upset other people?


You appear to be "braver" than the rest, since no one else has bothered to respond.
 
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Baptist4life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Irresistible Grace. God's regenerating Grace changed me from an enemy of God to a friend of God and made His salvation so precious to me that I could not resist His grace.

I've seen that done quite a lot in my 59 years. I've seen people weeping under conviction. I've seen tears flowing, yet no acceptance of Christ. I've seen people cling to a pew back they were resisting so strongly.
 

Winman

Active Member
Peter was writing a warning regarding false teachers. The false prophets falsely claimed to be saved, IE, "bought with a price" but in fact were not saved men. Peter is being somewhat sarcastic by saying these false prophets, who claim to be Christians, deny the very Lord they say bought them and that denial brings on them swift damnation. You can't just lift a verse out of its context and use it as a proof text. You have to read it in the context of Peter's teaching regarding the reprobate nature of those false prophets. :)

Peter was being sarcastic? Man, these answers you Calvinists give to explain away scripture that refutes your doctrine get more ridiculous by the moment. Do you ever stop and really listen to yourself?

Peter did not say these heretics claimed Jesus bought them, Peter himself said the Lord bought them. In fact, Peter said these men denied the Lord.
 
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