Scattering Ashes of a loved one.

[Helen]

Mary, you did just fine. Let me add another thought to all this. The cells in our bodies replace themselves a number of times between life and death. So which bits will be resurrected? The cells of those long since buried, whether Christian or pagan, have become elemental now. We may be breathing a bit of Aristotle! The elements all get recycled over and over again.

So what happens to a body after death has nothing to do with how God will resurrect any of us. He knows what He is doing, and if I have a bit of an arm in China, and He wants that bit to be resurrected with me, great. But I'm not worried about it. He's God!

 

[John of Japan]

Dear JoJ
Thank you so much, you are a blessing in disguise. Your words are very comforting and your heart must match. Thank you again:love2:

God bless you, Sister Mary. My heart goes out to you. I can't imagine being without my beloved mate. I am sure that God, since He is love, is giving you sweet comfort.

 

[John of Japan]

It is not a sin to follow someone's wishes and cremate.

However, as dan and Marcia have pointed out, the church's position for 2000 years has been burial.

I think this is improvable, and truly a Western point of view. Are you sure it is the Eastern view? Can you give me evidence from church history about Eastern Christianity? The Japanese Christian point of view has been cremation for hundreds of years (since Francis Xavier).

I just looked in the index of my History of the Church by Eusebius (early 4th cent.). Nothing. I then did a computer search on my "Church Fathers" disk, and found 50 references to "burial" with only one telling how to do it. According to the apocryphal "Acts of Philip," Philip wanted to be buried in Syrian paper rather than linen like Christ. (By the way, in Japan we bury after cremation, so the term "burial" itself does not mean interment.)

The term "interment" occurs only 14 times in the Church Fathers, and none of those times mandate interment. Besides, none of these mentions were in the apostolic fathers (nor did the term "burial" occur in the apostolic fathers), meaning that no one in the early church had a thing to say about burial.

There is a mention of cremation in the Syriac translation of "The Apology of Aristedes the Philosopher" (125 A. D.) describing the customs of the Egyptians. However, a direct translation from the Greek gives "burnt as offerings" instead of "cremated." At any rate, Aristides did not condemn the practice, he only mentioned it. Now, if the Egyptians did cremate and God disapproved, we would expect to find mention of it in the Mosaic Law. We do not.

There is also a mention of Indian cremation in a pseudo-Clementine work, but it doesn't condemn it per se.

So, the idea that the Christian church has always practice interment has no historical proof for at least the first 400-500 years after Christ. In fact, I found opposite evidence in my search.

The above mentioned Aristides wrote in 125 A. D., "They also err who believe that fire is a God. For fire was made for the use of men, and it is controlled by them, being carried about from place to place for boiling and roasting all kinds of meat, and even for (the burning of) dead bodies. Moreover it is extinguished in many ways, being quenched through man’s agency. So it cannot be allowed that fire is a God, but it is a work of God." So this Christian philosopher thought fire was a gift of God which could be used in cremation.

In his last three chapters, Aristides describes Christian customs, but never discusses the mode of burial. So, how did the early Christians conduct funerals? They didn't tell us. So why should it matter?:type:

 

[John of Japan]

I agree - it is not a hill I would die on, but I do think there is an issue here. Christians should not demean the body or make it seem like it doesn't matter. God created bodies for a reason and gave them to Adam and Eve. It makes us very distinct from the animal world and since all that God created was good, our bodies were created good. True, they are fallen now, but they will be raised and transformed.

My Japanese Christian friend believed it was more demeaning to the body to put it in the ground where it will rot than to cleanly cremate it.

Personally? Shortly after I came to Japan a Japanese young man who later became a pastor asked me how long I planned to stay here. I said I planned to die here. (Now I'm not so sure I won't someday retire to the States and teach. :smilewinkgrin: ) This pastor became a dear friend, and one day said to me, "Himes Sensei ("previously born one," or teacher), when you die you can be buried in our church grave!" I was deeply touched. Interestingly, his church grave plot was in one of the two graveyards I know of in Japan for interment.

Now we have our own church grave, so if I die here my ashes will be buried here right next to the ashes of the believers of my church. I can think of no better end to this old house of clay. It matters not to me whether I am interred or cremated. Let me just live for Christ.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

this Christian philosopher thought fire was a gift of God which could be used in cremation

For some insight into passages that speak on cremation, click here

With the many passages given, although some pertain to burning of idols and cities, I think it is safe to say God does not want those made righteous in Christ to suffer the burning that was commanded for pagans and such like.

 

[John of Japan]

For some insight into passages that speak on cremation, click here

With the many passages given, although some pertain to burning of idols and cities, I think it is safe to say God does not want those made righteous in Christ to suffer the burning that was commanded for pagans and such like.

I found the article very disappointing. Calling the burning of idols and burning people alive the same thing as cremation is dishonest, IMO. Here in Japan, people often burn their idols when they become a Christian, but absolutely no one considers that to be cremation. On the contrary, they know that the idols are not and never have been living!

Again, in the couple or three passages that actually could be said to refer to cremation, there was no prohibition. If cremation is wrong and a custom of the heathen only, why did not God prohibit it in the Law?

Furthermore, neither of the two examples given in the NT were cremation: burning books on magic, and people thrown into the lake of fire (which will not destroy them but only punish them). So there are no verses in the NT whatsoever on cremation.

The argument that burning always means a curse is very weak. If simple burning means a curse, then the burnt offering God commanded the Jews to do was a curse.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Apples and oranges, JoJ...

A burnt offering that God commands cannot be compared to His command to burn pagan people. The command to burn pagans was justice meted out. The burnt offering was to be a sweet smelling sacrifice to the Lord, not justice.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

[FONT=&quot]Abraham was buried (Genesis 25:8-10)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Sarah was buried (Genesis 23:1-4)

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rachel was buried (Genesis 35:19-20)

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Isaac was buried (Genesis 35:29)

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jacob was buried (Genesis 49:33; 50:1-13)

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joseph was buried (Genesis 50:26) Joseph’s bones were carried for 400 years before burial. Surely if God’s people were allowed cremation, Joseph would have been cremated! Would it not be much easier to carry a 3 to 4 pound urn of ashes rather than a heavy box with a human body for 400 years?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Joshua was buried (Joshua 24:29-30)

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Eleazar was buried (Joshua 24:33)

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Samuel was buried (1 Samuel 25:1)

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]David was buried (1 Kings 2:10)

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John the Baptist was buried (Matthew 14:10-12)

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ananias and Sapphira were buried (Acts 5:5-10)

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Stephen was buried (Acts 8:2)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain; But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. ... So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power; It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" 1 Cor. 15:35-44[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is interesting that Paul gives an illustration of planting seed in comparison of burial of a body. When a farmer gets seed from a store, he does not destroy the seed before planting it in the ground. No, he plants it that it might decay naturally to bring new life. That is a picture of burial of the body to decay naturally and be raised into new life at the resurrection.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is evident that the Old Testament prophets as far back as Job believed in a bodily resurrection, for Job wrote:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me." (Job 19:25 – 27)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Examples of cremation:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The example of Sodom and Gomorrah (2 Peter 2:6)
The example of Nadab and Abihu (Leviticus 10:1,2)
The example of the men who rebelled with Korah (Numbers 16:35)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Word of God records that ‘we are not our own, for we were bought with a price.’ And what a price that was! Is it glorifying God to destroy the body? Is it bringing glory and honor to Him to reject burial of the natural body and choose that which is associated with the ungodly? Our body is not ours, it belongs to God. Would it be right to burn something that you were entrusted with that belonged to someone else?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Jesus was buried. This is evident as recorded in the gospel of Luke:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. ... There laid they Jesus therefore. ..." (John 19:38-42)[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]According to God’s Holy Word, the soul of the Christian goes to be with Christ immediately upon death (Phil. 1:23; 2 Cor. 5:8; 2 Tim. 4:6; Lk. 23:43). [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The soul of the lost person descends to hell immediately upon death (Lk. 16:22-23; Rev. 20:13). [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That which is done to the body after a person dies, whether saved or unsaved, does not affect the soul's condition nor does it affect the future resurrection of the body. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Therefore, if a loved one has been cremated, it's not something to worry one’s self about. It is over and in the past and has no eternal consequences, IMO. If that loved one was saved through his or her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the fact that he or she was cremated certainly didn't keep him or her out of the eternal rest in heaven! [/FONT]

 

[rbell]

Many biblical tombs were above ground, so "burial" is a bit misleading.

We don't practice the customs of preparing the body like the jews did...

...so if you're gonna go by "biblical practice" skip the funeral home, get your cloths and spices ready, and "bury" your loved ones above ground.

So Abraham was buried. Abraham also had livestock. Does that mean anyone who doesn't have livestock is wrong? Don't turn a simple historical account (Abe was buried) into prescribed behavior (ya'll have to be buried).

Besides...wouldn't it be consistent with NT theology to not be worried about the body? Heck, if it's buried, it'll decompose anyway. It's ashes either way you go...just a difference in speed.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Jesus wasn't buried. He was placed in someone else's catacomb, with a huge rock rolled in front to close it off.

Cheers,

Jim

Paul's writings in 1 Corinthians 15:4 would refute that statement, Jim. It reads:

1 Corinthians 15:4 4 And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

[rbell]

Paul's writings in 1 Corinthians 15:4 would refute that statement, Jim. It reads:

1 Corinthians 15:4 4 And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

We've changed the definition in 2000 years. Today, "burial" means (usually) "in the ground." Then, "burial" wasn't necessarily subterranian.

Same difference. Jesus died, and rose.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Same difference

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Jesus died, and rose.

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Jesus did not just die and rise again. Paul included 'And that He was buried' for a reason.

 

[rbell]

Last post on this hijack for me...I don't want to totally derail the thread.

DITW, I'm not saying "Jesus wasn't buried."

But "burial" was done differently in AD 30 than in 2006 AD. The word "burial" did not necessarily mean "under ground." Many tombs were above ground. "He was buried" means he was placed where one would place a dead person.

 

[Hope of Glory]

But "burial" was done differently in AD 30 than in 2006 AD. The word "burial" did not necessarily mean "under ground." Many tombs were above ground. "He was buried" means he was placed where one would place a dead person.

Actually, the word used there is "entombed", so I guess we need to quit burying people, according to Diggin, since that's not what they did back in the day.

OTOH, we could just accept that God is powerful enough to resurrect us, whether we are buried, entombed, burned, or whatever. Or, we could worry about the state of those who have died accidentally in horrific fires.

MLDH, I agree with Helen: Ya done did good.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

If one looked at Biblical history, one would see that the tombs they were buried in were generally in a hole dug on the side of a hill or mountain. Even though they were above one level of the ground, they were still buried under the ground because earth or rock in that hill or mountain was above them.

HoG, your insults are uncalled for.

 

[Gershom]

Lots of sidetracking going on in some of the replies from pro-cremators in how God has the power to resurrect a pile of ashes; how a burial should be followed to the mark, etc. But the point is:

God's people did not practice cremation.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Amen, Gershom.

One might also note that God told Adam

Genesis 3:19 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

He did not say 'for ashes thou art', and ashes are not dust.

 

[Helen]

Ummm, let's do a little of the yuckier biology here, OK?

When a body and soul are separated in death, the body begins to decay. In the biblical days, it would be entombed or buried with just a cloth. No nice metal casket to keep the worms out. And so the organisms in the ground would gradually eat away at it, including the worms. The person's body would become worm poo in part, which is very good to help plants to grow. The person's elemental remains would be recycled into plants, dirt, even some in the air, washed out to sea in part....or into the ground water to be drunk later by others....

Dust was the smallest bit of matter known in the ancient days. Dust to dust simply means back to the elements -- the same stuff that makes up the dust. Ashes make up a good part of dust, especially after fires and volcanoes! Dust includes ashes in their tiniest pieces.

It does not matter HOW your body is returned to the elements. The simple fact is that, unless the Lord Himself intervenes, it will be. Rot, burning, whatever. It does not matter.

As for me, whatever the survivors wish to do with my body is fine with me. I won't be living in it anymore! They need to do what makes THEM feel more comfortable with the death process.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Lots of sidetracking going on in some of the replies from pro-cremators in how God has the power to resurrect a pile of ashes; how a burial should be followed to the mark, etc. But the point is:

God's people did not practice cremation.

God's people didn't do alot of things back then that God's people do today. Or maybe you can show me Biblical precedent for alot of the things we have or do in our churches. Just because cremation wasn't a traditional method of dealing with the deceased does not make it wrong.

 

[John of Japan]

Apples and oranges, JoJ...

A burnt offering that God commands cannot be compared to His command to burn pagan people. The command to burn pagans was justice meted out. The burnt offering was to be a sweet smelling sacrifice to the Lord, not justice.

Maybe I should have explained. Some who oppose cremation do so saying that fire in the Bible always means judgment. (I don't say that you do.) That is what I was referring to.

Cremation and burning a live person: apples and oranges. So, the early church writer mentioned by me earlier opposed suttee, the practice of burning alive the widow on the funeral pyre of a dead man, but did not oppose the cremation per se. Again, it was largely due to the efforts of William Carey, the Baptist missionary, that suttee was abolished in India. However, to the best of my knowledge, Carey did not oppose the practice of cremation itself.