SDA and the heresy on hell

[BobRyan]

The scriptures do NOT teach either soul sleep or non existing anymore,!

Until you read the actual Bible.

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Cor 15
50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable

John 11
11 After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died,

Clearly when you "quote you" you do so merely to contradict the text so you can then blame Ellen White

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 10:28 "Fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

So while the Lake of Fire does provide literal torment of literal fire and literal brimstone to literal lost souls in literal lake of fire -- that supernatural event will end with the "destruction of BOTH body AND soul".

Even Satan himself will "be no more" -- will be reduced to ashes.

Ezek 28
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Rev 20
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Exek 18:4 "the soul that sin - it shall die"

Ezek 28 - reduced to ashes

Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

The scriptures do NOT teach ...non existing anymore !

Until you read the actual Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

Yeshua1 said: ↑
Destruction does not mean to be caused to cease to exist, but to existing now apart from prsense of God forever!

Until you read the actual Bible.

Ezek 28 - reduced to ashes

Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Matthew 10:28 "DETROY both body and soul in fiery hell" as compared to those who merely "kill the body but unable to kill the soul".

DESTROYED Sodom and Gomorrah -- Luke 17:29 in fire and brimstone.
Destroyed by "reducing them to ashes" - 2 Peter 2:6 ... that city is gone.. buildings wiped out.

Don't you mean, "Until you read the Bible and apocryphal books."
.

When did I say you need an apocryphal book to tell you what Ezek 28 says about "cease to be forever"???

I find your logic "illusive" at that point.

 

[utilyan]

Well I want to throw some terms out there.

A ROSE by any other name is still a ROSE.


This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." --Catholic Catechism

The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Eternal Separation from God = Hell

If there is NO ETERNAL SEPARATION FROM GOD = NO HELL.


So if you a eternally polymorphed into ashes. We are still around right were are the ashes right?

Or is it when you are GONE, you indeed are GONE, eternally separated from God.

 

[BobRyan]

Well I want to throw some terms out there.

A ROSE by any other name is still a ROSE.


This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." --Catholic Catechism

The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God

So then you have quoted "you" And also the CCC.

More bible - less creative writing please.

 

[utilyan]

So then you have quoted "you" And also the CCC.

More bible - less creative writing please.

I don't have to quote the bible, I can just quote you. You just don't like the vocabulary so I'm just throwing the word "hell" away.

"reduced to ashes" Would this cause Eternal Separation from God?



This is the only phrase we need to hear on this thread, "Eternal Separation from God".


The means doesn't matter, killed, sleep,destroyed,frozen,annihilated, cremated,eternal fire, water spray bottle, delete button, ignore, brown bag over your head, sit in the corner, timeout, wildcard draw 4.

 

[Yeshua1]

Until you read the actual Bible.

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Cor 15
50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable

John 11
11 After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died,

Clearly when you "quote you" you do so merely to contradict the text so you can then blame Ellen White

Sleep means physical death of the believer!

 

[BobRyan]

Sleep means physical death of the believer!

When the bible speaks of physical death "as KILL the body" Matt 10:28 it never says "the body sleeps" -- and we all know it.

When the bible says that at death the person is dormant/sleeps -- it never says this is just true of believers.

Hint - the physical body of both believers and nonbelievers "sleeps every night" - but the soul is not asleep in that case nor is the soul dormant in that case.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't have to quote the bible,

I notice you have that "not quoting the Bible" view.

I

I can just quote you. You just don't like the vocabulary so I'm just throwing the word "hell" away.

Some Bible writers call it "Hell" -- John calls it the ":lake of fire" -- either way is fine with me.

"reduced to ashes" Would this cause Eternal Separation from God?

A side effect.

It would be like saying "death by the electric chair means you won't need to pay taxes anymore" -- its a side effect.

This is the only phrase we need to hear on this thread, "Eternal Separation from God".

Particularly when you are trying to avoid the actual Bible

 

[utilyan]

I notice you have that "not quoting the Bible" view.



Some Bible writers call it "Hell" -- John calls it the ":lake of fire" -- either way is fine with me.



A side effect.

It would be like saying "death by the electric chair means you won't need to pay taxes anymore" -- its a side effect.




Particularly when you are trying to avoid the actual Bible

Eternal Separation From God is REAL, Amen!?

I don't have to call it what it is. WE AGREE.

 

[utilyan]

You believe there is a eternal unity with God? You can call it pickle palace, heaven, kumbah ya land it is what it is....

Eternal Separation From God -> YOU BELIEVE IT "side effect" Folks call that up CREEK , Donkeyville, yabba dabba don't. You call it "SIDE EFFECT" We call that Hell.

2 Thessalonians 1

9These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

 

[Yeshua1]

When the bible speaks of physical death "as KILL the body" Matt 10:28 it never says "the body sleeps" -- and we all know it.

When the bible says that at death the person is dormant/sleeps -- it never says this is just true of believers.

Hint - the physical body of both believers and nonbelievers "sleeps every night" - but the soul is not asleep in that case nor is the soul dormant in that case.

Jesus spirit did not stay asleep in Him did it, neither did that of paul?

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus spirit did not stay asleep in Him did it, neither did that of paul?

1 Thess 4 says they were still asleep at the 2nd coming - and that the "hope" of the Christian is to "Comfort one another" with the fact that they will be resurrected at the 2nd coming.

 

[BobRyan]

You believe there is a eternal unity with God? You can call it pickle palace, heaven, ,

Rev 21 does not describe "pickle" -- Its focus is real heaven ... real New Jerusalem... real presence of God

 

[thatbrian]

SDA doctrine denies the gospel of grace in favor of one of self-salvation, so we should expect it to be in error in other areas of doctrine and practice as well.

 

[BobRyan]

SDA doctrine denies the gospel of grace in favor of one of self-salvation,

Just not in real life.

false and factless accusations are easy to make - I think we all knew that.

 

[thatbrian]

Just not in real life.

false and factless accusations are easy to make - I think we all knew that.

I was actually trying to frame that with the most positive spin I could manage.

Anthony Hoekema said that the SDA is a cult and belongs grouped with JW's, Mormons, and Christian Science. I think he makes a valid argument.

 

[thatbrian]

This might be helpful to some: How to Leave the Seventh Day Adventist Church - Leaving SDA

It's a support site for those who wish to leave SDA. Now, as far as I know, there are no support sites for helping someone leave the SBA or the PCA. Why? Because the only people who need assistance and support to leave a religious group are likely in a cult.

 

[thatbrian]

The hundreds of comments below this video tell of the cultish atmosphere in the SDA from people who were once deceived. Great testimony of God's saving grace.

 

[BobRyan]

SDA doctrine denies the gospel of grace in favor of one of self-salvation,

Just not in real life.

false and factless accusations are easy to make - I think we all knew that.

I was actually trying to frame that with the most positive spin I could manage.

ok -- that is pretty funny!!

Anthony Hoekema said that the SDA is a cult and belongs grouped with JW's, Mormons, and Christian Science. I think he makes a valid argument.

Hoekema's argument was totally destroyed by Walter Martin's book "Kingdom of the Cults" where Martin placed the SDA Christian denomination in the appendix giving it a huge amount of space for discussion and totally annihilated Hoekema's shallow arguments addressing Hoekema's book specifically - explicitly.

Martin was no SDA at all - but he knew a bogus argument when he saw it. Martin pointed out that half the time Hoekema was not even using the SDA published statements of belief for his straw-man arguments!! How sad that anyone could be snookered by Hoekema.