Sealed Forever

[skypair]

1. If man on his own hates God and the things of God and cannot come to God on his own, then what other explanation is there for some actually coming to God for salvation, except what we read in John 6:65?

You hated God? Oh, I see you said "if." So you have no independent knowledge this is true -- you just trust Calvinism's take on that part of scripture. You deny that lost people pray to God in times of need and even are curious enough to read the Bible or watch "The Passion," etc.

2. Are you sold on that health and wealth "gospel"? How come the greatest Christian, Paul, never promoted that health and wealth stuff?

It has its limitations, of course. I was saved young so I got to make some pretty critical early spiritual decisions that could clearly have gone worse if I had followed my peers. But you know good and well that David said "I have never seen God's childern begging bread" and that those Proverbs are there for believers who have learned the lessons of scripture.

3. In fact, Paul was not ashamed to enumerate the countless sufferings he endured for the gospel's sake (2 Cor 11:23ff).

Paul lived among hostile people -- David didn't and we don't, yet. And Paul was abundantly wealthy in what he was pursuing, healthy enough to do it, and honor? We're still counting his honor in billions of Gentile Christians!

4. I meant to say God as a good Calvinist would. :thumbs:

"Old dog? --- no new tricks?" :type: Sounds today like you just went through another Calvinist "water-boarding" session! :laugh:

I had a union rep that "got the treatment" when he "veered to the right" during a strike vote meeting. Not quite as intense as Paul's experiences, but you'd apparently know that better than me. We can be going along in such scriptural agreement and, next thing I know, you pull back to Calvinism.

5. There are going to be Tares among the Wheat. I didn't make that up--Christ explicitly says that (Matt 13).

The NT version is "foolish virgins" among the "wise" (Wheat and tares are not going to "marry" anyone.). I think you may get the right idea if you get the right imagery.

In Mt 13, we are the 'mustard seed and tree' that grew so large that the birds/evil ones abode in our branches. But mustard seeds are never confused for birds by the mustard seeds.

I feel soo sorry that you don't see Christ/husband as the "Savior of your body." Looking back over 45 years as a believer, I recognize how God saved my body --- many things He saved me from, how much He has provided for me, what kind of a character He has made me to be compared to what my own impulses would have been without Him. I hope you didn't come to a "Rom 1:21 crisis" and make a wrong turn.

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

You hated God? Oh, I see you said "if." So you have no independent knowledge this is true -- you just trust Calvinism's take on that part of scripture. You deny that lost people pray to God in times of need and even are curious enough to read the Bible or watch "The Passion," etc.

1. Not at all! I can only go with what I read in Scripture. I can't make stuff up as I go along. This universe and the operation of it belongs solely to God.

2. Lost people praying to God and God answering their prays, is a God problme--not mine.

It has its limitations, of course. I was saved young so I got to make some pretty critical early spiritual decisions that could clearly have gone worse if I had followed my peers. But you know good and well that David said "I have never seen God's childern begging bread" and that those Proverbs are there for believers who have learned the lessons of scripture.

3. God has a way of taking care of His own. There's no doubt about that. But Scripture must always be interpreted in context.

Paul lived among hostile people -- David didn't and we don't, yet. And Paul was abundantly wealthy in what he was pursuing, healthy enough to do it, and honor? We're still counting his honor in billions of Gentile Christians!

4. Paul never preached a health and wealth fluff--reread Paul. David had to flee the presence of Saul and even lived in the caves of Judaea.

5. Christians are being persecuted all over the world for their faith--just recently in Turkey Christains were slaughtered for their faith.

"Old dog? --- no new tricks?" :type: Sounds today like you just went through another Calvinist "water-boarding" session! :laugh:

6. I'm a Calvinist because I see what is commonly called Calvinism in Scripture. Bottomline.

I had a union rep that "got the treatment" when he "veered to the right" during a strike vote meeting. Not quite as intense as Paul's experiences, but you'd apparently know that better than me. We can be going along in such scriptural agreement and, next thing I know, you pull back to Calvinism.

7. Scripture is the order of the day. :thumbs:

The NT version is "foolish virgins" among the "wise" (Wheat and tares are not going to "marry" anyone.). I think you may get the right idea if you get the right imagery.

8. You asked me if all those who go to church are saved and responded by pointing to the parable witht the Wheat and the Tares.

I feel soo sorry that you don't see Christ/husband as the "Savior of your body." Looking back over 45 years as a believer, I recognize how God saved my body --- many things He saved me from, how much He has provided for me, what kind of a character He has made me to be compared to what my own impulses would have been without Him. I hope you didn't come to a "Rom 1:21 crisis" and make a wrong turn.

skypair

9. Paul says that Christ is the Savior of the body, the church. Paul tells us what the body is, it is the church (Eph 1:22, 23).

 

[skypair]

1. Not at all! I can only go with what I read in Scripture. I can't make stuff up as I go along. This universe and the operation of it belongs solely to God.

Wait! Don't you trust EXPERIENCE? How many people do you know that HATE God? Doesn't the 'hate' interpretation make a liar out of a) scripture or b) Calvinism to you?

2. Lost people praying to God and God answering their prays, is a God problme--not mine.

And a "Cornelius" problem, right? Cornelius was a "God-fearer" but God heard him though he was UNSAVED!

3. God has a way of taking care of His own. There's no doubt about that. But Scripture must always be interpreted in context.

TC -- your Christianity seems a lot more about what you've read than about application. Dear man! My mom used to tell me about this and I didn't believe her. Then I started to believe the Bible! She was right! You have GOT to know that you have a NEW LIFE in Christ -- unless you don't (??).

never preached a health and wealth fluff--reread Paul. David had to flee the presence of Saul and even lived in the caves of Judaea.

There are "mountains" and "valleys," TC. But Paul DID preach (to us joggers) that exercise availeth some but godly living more. And he didn't have to preach about wealth -- he was a tentmaker. That was a pretty good job then if you were in it for the money.

5. Christians are being persecuted all over the world for their faith--just recently in Turkey Christains were slaughtered for their faith.

And why? Because God gave them a heart to forsake all and follow Me.

But you raise an interesting issue -- do you feel many clergy end up there as a vocation rather than as a calling? I know many are "idealists" when they first believe and think that the mission field or ministry is automatically what God wants them to do. Others just find "acceptance" there more than elsewhere, I'm sure. But I always wonder if God really "called" men like Jim (???) to die in the mission field or did he (they) just "overcommit" (like I feel Clement did).

6. I'm a Calvinist because I see what is commonly called Calvinism in Scripture. Bottomline.

Scripture is scripture. Calvinism is an interpretation of scripture, sir. It explains the Bible for "wise" men. Us "little folks" try not to let that distract us. It becomes too much like the "telephone game" to listen to "hearsay." I don't mean to "dis" your motive -- just your means, TC. Write your own Bible study of John or Romans -- no "props." See what you come up with. I do it every night before going to sleep (I'm in Romans if you couldn't tell :jesus: ). The Spirit is SO clear when the comotion of the day is past! Just you and the Spirit, TC! :thumbs:

8. You asked me if all those who go to church are saved and responded by pointing to the parable witht the Wheat and the Tares.

Sorry, I guess I was anticipating what you would be thinking about. My bad.

9. Paul says that Christ is the Savior of the body, the church. Paul tells us what the body is, it is the church (Eph 1:22, 23).

There is no doubt that, in one sense, you are right. But that is not the only sense in which scripture uses the symbology. When the Bible talks about the Spirit being the "Earnest of our redemption" (Eph 1:14), do you not feel -- does the Spirit not tell you (as Adrian Rogers preached) -- that He is your "engagement ring?" until the our wedding day?

I don't know, TC. Have you "entered into His rest?" I know ministry is your job but are you in the desert or the promised land?

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

Wait! Don't you trust EXPERIENCE? How many people do you know that HATE God? Doesn't the 'hate' interpretation make a liar out of a) scripture or b) Calvinism to you?

1. I trust experience, but experience in line with the Word. We all have experiences, but should we runaway with them, simply because they are experiences? Not at all!

And a "Cornelius" problem, right? Cornelius was a "God-fearer" but God heard him though he was UNSAVED!

2. Cornelius, I believe, was being drawn by God for that ultimate salvation experience (Acts 10-11).

TC -- your Christianity seems a lot more about what you've read than about application. Dear man! My mom used to tell me about this and I didn't believe her. Then I started to believe the Bible! She was right! You have GOT to know that you have a NEW LIFE in Christ -- unless you don't (??).

3. Skypair, my Christianity is based on Jesus, the One I'm trying to understand and obey--He's is so majestic in glory.

There are "mountains" and "valleys," TC. But Paul DID preach (to us joggers) that exercise availeth some but godly living more. And he didn't have to preach about wealth -- he was a tentmaker. That was a pretty good job then if you were in it for the money.

4. Still Paul wrote to the Romans, campaigning for money. Don't forget how the Philippians helped him financially (Phil 4).

But you raise an interesting issue -- do you feel many clergy end up there as a vocation rather than as a calling? I know many are "idealists" when they first believe and think that the mission field or ministry is automatically what God wants them to do. Others just find "acceptance" there more than elsewhere, I'm sure. But I always wonder if God really "called" men like Jim (???) to die in the mission field or did he (they) just "overcommit" (like I feel Clement did).

5. I don't know who are really called or not called. But God does call those He wants in ministry.

Scripture is scripture. Calvinism is an interpretation of scripture, sir. It explains the Bible for "wise" men. Us "little folks" try not to let that distract us. It becomes too much like the "telephone game" to listen to "hearsay." I don't mean to "dis" your motive -- just your means, TC. Write your own Bible study of John or Romans -- no "props." See what you come up with. I do it every night before going to sleep (I'm in Romans if you couldn't tell :jesus: ). The Spirit is SO clear when the comotion of the day is past! Just you and the Spirit, TC! :thumbs:

6. I'm a Christian by conversion, a Calvinistic Baptist by conviction. I'm sorry that you continue to stumble over Calvinism.

There is no doubt that, in one sense, you are right. But that is not the only sense in which scripture uses the symbology. When the Bible talks about the Spirit being the "Earnest of our redemption" (Eph 1:14), do you not feel -- does the Spirit not tell you (as Adrian Rogers preached) -- that He is your "engagement ring?" until the our wedding day?

7. Skypair, we are saying the same thing, except that the late Adrian Rogers is making reference to the modern use of the Greek word arrabon, which in Paul's day meant a "down payment," but today that same word means "an engagement ring." Let's go with Paul use of the word.

I don't know, TC. Have you "entered into His rest?" I know ministry is your job but are you in the desert or the promised land?

skypair

8. Skypair, right now I trying to understand what it means to be a follower of Christ and to have God as my heavenly father.

 

[skypair]

TC,

Sorry to be so hard on you. You've been very honest and forthcoming with me and I have enjoyed getting to know you better. :thumbs:

Yet you still seem to have "strung some barbed wire" up as touching Calvinist distinctives -- as if there are passages you won't let the "wee sheep" graze on.

I look forward to your interaction on the new "Intorducing Christian Theology" thread above. :wavey:

skypair