Sealed Forever

[skypair]

Sky,
Could you explain what you mean by this. The two words translated "faith" & "believe", seem by definition to indicate the same thing.

Gladly, jne! :godisgood: We have had this discussion many times here on BB and it always comes down to "it's the same word in the Greek." Well, that may be but there are alternative renderings of it even in theological dictionaries.

I always go to Heb 11:1 -- "Faith is the substance of things [believed] hoped for and the evidence of things unseen." When we "believe," we are really
hoping" that the promises of God are true just like at the same time we hope for heaven "when it is all over." But when we ask Christ into our lives, an amazing thing happens -- we receive FAITH AND the Holy Spirit's regeneration. Guess what. That is SUBSTANCE and that is EVIDENCE that what God promised, what we hoped for, is TRUE!!

As I have also given before, faith = knowledge + assent + appropriation. That is, mind, emotion, and will are involved in repentance to God and conversion. Missing any of these is "missing the mark" (it's why many hear but aren't saved) BUT doing all of these is JUSTIFICATION -- step #1 in salvation. And the "outcome" of these is that God GIVES you faith, regeneration, ... all the gifts of the Spirit (1Cor 12:7-11)!

Explain your take on this. Specifically how belief is rewarded with faith. Mainly what the difference is.

Does that answer your question or shall I go on?

The reason I bring it up, is the context seems to have the "righteousness of God" at it's center & not "faith", so that he is not saying "faith is given to those that believe", but, "the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ, is given to those who believe".

Yes, the "righteousness of God" is the OT description of "justification." You realize, don't you, that in the OT they did not receive the "evidence" of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The interesting thing about the indwelling HS is that this is what is called "grace" in the NT. That is why this is called the "age of grace," jne. God "gave" faith in the OT. But in their case, it was secular proof - riches, honor, health, Prov 3:16 for example.

In other words, the righteousness of God is given to one who has faith in Jesus Christ, which defines him as a believer. I see no difference in believing on the Lord Jesus Christ or having faith in him.

Picture yourself as Abram. You hear God. You do what He says (leave Ur -- or Noah, you start building the ark). You believe God but you have no "proof." Faith is not in intellectual assent -- it is in OBEDIENCE/appropriation!

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Summary: faith begins with belief -- knowledge, assent, appropriation. When it gets past your SPIRIT (mind, emotions, and will), it changes your SOUL!

skypair

 

[skypair]

TC,

The wife "beckons." I'll look into that and get back tomorrow. :smilewinkgrin:

skypair

 

[jne1611]

Gladly, jne! :godisgood: We have had this discussion many times here on BB and it always comes down to "it's the same word in the Greek." Well, that may be but there are alternative renderings of it even in theological dictionaries.

I always go to Heb 11:1 -- "Faith is the substance of things [believed] hoped for and the evidence of things unseen." When we "believe," we are really
hoping" that the promises of God are true just like at the same time we hope for heaven "when it is all over." But when we ask Christ into our lives, an amazing thing happens -- we receive FAITH AND the Holy Spirit's regeneration. Guess what. That is SUBSTANCE and that is EVIDENCE that what God promised, what we hoped for, is TRUE!!

As I have also given before, faith = knowledge + assent + appropriation. That is, mind, emotion, and will are involved in repentance to God and conversion. Missing any of these is "missing the mark" (it's why many hear but aren't saved) BUT doing all of these is JUSTIFICATION -- step #1 in salvation. And the "outcome" of these is that God GIVES you faith, regeneration, ... all the gifts of the Spirit (1Cor 12:7-11)!

Does that answer your question or shall I go on?

Yes, the "righteousness of God" is the OT description of "justification." You realize, don't you, that in the OT they did not receive the "evidence" of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The interesting thing about the indwelling HS is that this is what is called "grace" in the NT. That is why this is called the "age of grace," jne. God "gave" faith in the OT. But in their case, it was secular proof - riches, honor, health, Prov 3:16 for example.

Picture yourself as Abram. You hear God. You do what He says (leave Ur -- or Noah, you start building the ark). You believe God but you have no "proof." Faith is not in intellectual assent -- it is in OBEDIENCE/appropriation!

Summary: faith begins with belief -- knowledge, assent, appropriation. When it gets past your SPIRIT (mind, emotions, and will), it changes your SOUL!

skypair

Thanks for the explanation. I still see no difference in the two words from the context of the Scripture cited, nor do I see in Heb. 11:1 the word "faith" being any different than if he had said "belief", for, they are the same idea is conveyed by both words. But, you are entitled to your opinion as much as I am I have seen where you make the distinction on other posts & thought I would ask. Thanks! In Noah's case, I see that his faith produced his works. I do believe that at this time God's grace has been manifested, but, (I am not saying you believe it was not) I also believe God's grace was operational and bestowed in the OT as well.

 

[skypair]

1. I don't believe you have the correct reference on 2:22; do you mean Rom 3:22? If so, I don't use the KJV as my primary and I don't see what you're seeing. You'll have to clarify that one for me. :thumbs:

Rom 3:22 gets to the issue of justification which comes before regeneration. When we believe (know, assent, apporpriate or as Dr. Rogers used to say know, reckon, yield - also from Romans), we are judged by God to have His righteousness and faith.

Now in our days, God then gives us "into the kingdom of His Son" with all the spiritual "benes" of sanctification --- the indwelling Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit (1Cor 12:7-11), the new birth, the adoption of sons, etc.

2. The redemption that is in Christ is a result of God's grace (Eph 1:4-6). Our faith is only possible because of God's grace (Acts 18:27, "When he arrived there, he proved to be of great benefit to those who, by God’s grace, had believed," NLTse).

Those a pretty convoluted texts to me -- less clear than Rom 5:1-2, 10. But let me ask you -- is "grace" a judicial option for God? Can He just say, "Not guilty by reason of My grace?" Because what I am saying is that God's justice must be satisfied regarding each of us and it is my understanding that it can ONLY be done by "pleading the blood of Jesus" on my behalf.

Whereas some might plead for God's grace and love, that isn't the way His justice operates.

3. You might believe that, but my Bible says that grace comes first to provide me with salvation (Eph 2:4-8; Titus 2:11).

So grace is the reason you are saved and not Jesus?

4. We need grace initially and we need grace for the entire journey (Jude 21).

Yes -- that sounds to me like sanctification that begins immediately upon belief and repentance toward God.

5. Anyone who is faithful to the study of the Word knows that the redemption of the body comes at the regeneration of all things at the coming of Christ (Rom 8:23).

Um, do you not consider the body "redeemed" by the new birth? Does it not become then the temple of God? Does God not give it a body as it pleaseth Him? Is it not called a "body of terrestrial glory" at that point?
(1Cor 15:29-41)

I'm glad you brought those verses to my attention and I will study and see if I have put too fine an edge on my "double edged sword." :laugh: The one thing I think you believe and agree on is that "Jesus saves," not grace. Grace is an outcome of salvation. It could be a precursor to salvation being that grace appears to be administered by the Holy Spirit. And God IS rich in mercy (not giving us what we do deserve) in forgiving our sins and grace (giving us what we don't and can't deserve) in saving us. But He only saves us "in Christ." We have to get "in" there somehow.

But there is also a reason why this is called the "age of grace" whereaas the previous was called "age of law." I am trying to show you that eternal salvation is through Jesus sacrifice -- not grace, not "election" -- but Jesus was "raised for our justification."

skypair

 

[skypair]

Thanks for the explanation. I still see no difference in the two words from the context of the Scripture cited, nor do I see in Heb. 11:1 the word "faith" being any different than if he had said "belief", for, they are the same idea is conveyed by both words. But, you are entitled to your opinion as much as I am I have seen where you make the distinction on other posts & thought I would ask. Thanks! In Noah's case, I see that his faith produced his works. I do believe that at this time God's grace has been manifested, but, (I am not saying you believe it was not) I also believe God's grace was operational and bestowed in the OT as well.

Let's illiustrate it with "low hanging fruit," then, shall we?

Before you married, you hoped and believed your wife would follow through with her promise (and she you). You might have even used the word "faith" to describe it.

But what if she never began making preparations for the wedding or the honeymoon or the home and life you would share. Faith is "engendered" by works whereas belief or hope has no evidence or substance.

Dr Rogers used to give the good illustration that "spiritual growth is one step after another -- faith, works, faith, works,..." But it all starts with a hope and a
promise, doesn't it?

skypair

 

[jne1611]

Let's illiustrate it with "low hanging fruit," then, shall we?

Before you married, you hoped and believed your wife would follow through with her promise (and she you). You might have even used the word "faith" to describe it.

But what if she never began making preparations for the wedding or the honeymoon or the home and life you would share. Faith is "engendered" by works whereas belief or hope has no evidence or substance.

Dr Rogers used to give the good illustration that "spiritual growth is one step after another -- faith, works, faith, works,..." But it all starts with a hope and a
promise, doesn't it?

skypair

I see what you are saying, yet, I think the illustration is lacking for this reason. The faith or belief is toward God. In either case, works are a consequence of faith. The hope, belief, faith is in God who Has already shown Himself faithful. The faith is given from Him.


In your illustration, it would be God hoping I would produce works. God is not hoping to see my fruit. To God my fruit is guaranteed in the new birth, for it is His production. If your illustration went the other way, I would be hoping God would keep His end of the salvation promise. I do not believe that this is the idea behind the word "faith" or "believe". The faith of Abraham counted God's promise as guaranteed & received it as such.

As I said before, there is no difference in the idea conveyed by the word's "faith" or "believe". There is to my knowledge no Scripture that says that God gives faith to the one who believes. That is, making a difference between the two. And seems unwarranted to make such a distinction.

 

[Dan V.]

It is quite possible for both of us to be on the same side of the fence but begin to argue about what we know. It's called "vanity" and God subjected us all to it in hope. And it is in a strange hope at that -- God hopes that we fail and will find Him to supply our every need!

Right now I see Calvinism having many critical questions regarding the very basics of salvation, of sovereignty, sin nature, the spiritual makeup of man, of where evil came from, etc. Yet they outspokenly continue as if no problems exist. That, my friend, is vanity, pure and simple.

We need to address those issues head on beginning with "Why really does God choose whom He chooses to salvation" because choosing and saving everyone would be His even greater glory? And it doesn't "please" Him to condemn most people either.

To me, we are left with Rom 8:29 -- He chooses whom He foreknows will believe. But Calvinism and "vanity" will not allow you to make that determination in your own spirit, will it?

Do you remember when Jesus said, "If you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you would say unto that mountain, 'Be ye removed hence' and it would be cast into the sea?" He was talking about Calvinism, TC. When you realize that mountain is totally unnecessary because of its defects (like the Reformers realized that Catholicism was unnecessary), you can dismiss the whole thing and start studying your Bible with the wisdom of the Spirit again.

Another one is "Why does one believe and another not?" Calvinism is merely human speculation on this issue because any human ability is disallowed. Yet when a Calvinist hears a presidential debate, it is likely he will hear and see both sides for what they truly are.

The salvation "debate" rages daily in America. All will hear sometime and all may choose one side or the other. But the "saving" side also requires commitment -- repentance from self to God. That is clear in the gospel message and, no matter whether you call it "work" or not (Rom 4:5), it does separate those who believe from those who don't.

Calvinists have answers -- even scriptures -- that appear to explain these issues. But they actually deny God's character. So let's keep finding things we agree on until those things lead to the whole truth.

skypair

You don't understand Calvinism.

Dan V.

 

[Amy.G]

You don't understand Calvinism.

Dan V.

You're new here aren't you? :laugh:

 

[TCGreek]

Rom 3:22 gets to the issue of justification which comes before regeneration. When we believe (know, assent, apporpriate or as Dr. Rogers used to say know, reckon, yield - also from Romans), we are judged by God to have His righteousness and faith.

1. According to the context of Rom 3:22, the plight of man is remedied through God's righteousness which was seen in the Substitionary sacrife of Christ, and this redemption is appropriate only when a person believes (v., 25, "whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith," ESV, emphasis mine). This text is not addressing Regeneration.

Now in our days, God then gives us "into the kingdom of His Son" with all the spiritual "benes" of sanctification --- the indwelling Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit (1Cor 12:7-11), the new birth, the adoption of sons, etc.

2. I do not doubt that for one sec.

Those a pretty convoluted texts to me -- less clear than Rom 5:1-2, 10. But let me ask you -- is "grace" a judicial option for God? Can He just say, "Not guilty by reason of My grace?" Because what I am saying is that God's justice must be satisfied regarding each of us and it is my understanding that it can ONLY be done by "pleading the blood of Jesus" on my behalf.

3. There's nothing convoluted about Acts 18:27, "those who had believed through grace," NASB). It was "through grace" that they believed. That's clear as crystal (ask Billy).

4. Yes, we are justified, declared righteous by grace---no well-bred Calvinist denies this.

5. God has grant sinners pardon because of His grace (Rom 3:21-30 makes that quite clear). But not until we put our faith in His Son and that divine transfer takes place, do we hear, Not guilty! (2 Cor 5:21, "For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ" NLTse).

Whereas some might plead for God's grace and love, that isn't the way His justice operates.

So grace is the reason you are saved and not Jesus?

6. Jesus will forever remain my Savior, but it was because of grace why He became my Savior---grace is for the undeserving--that's me!

Um, do you not consider the body "redeemed" by the new birth? Does it not become then the temple of God? Does God not give it a body as it pleaseth Him? Is it not called a "body of terrestrial glory" at that point?
(1Cor 15:29-41)

7. No where in Scripture do we read that the body is now redeemed. According to Paul, the Redemption of our body comes later (Rom 8:23, "we also groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for adoption, the redemption of our bodies," HCSB, emphasis mine). It seems like you have something against what Paul is saying.

I'm glad you brought those verses to my attention and I will study and see if I have put too fine an edge on my "double edged sword." :laugh: The one thing I think you believe and agree on is that "Jesus saves," not grace. Grace is an outcome of salvation. It could be a precursor to salvation being that grace appears to be administered by the Holy Spirit. And God IS rich in mercy (not giving us what we do deserve) in forgiving our sins and grace (giving us what we don't and can't deserve) in saving us. But He only saves us "in Christ." We have to get "in" there somehow.

8. Both our Bibles read, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people," ESV). Salvation come through the grace of God--no grace of God, no salvation.

But there is also a reason why this is called the "age of grace" whereaas the previous was called "age of law." I am trying to show you that eternal salvation is through Jesus sacrifice -- not grace, not "election" -- but Jesus was "raised for our justification."

skypair

9. Fix your soteriology, Skypair!

 

[skypair]

1. According to the context of Rom 3:22, the plight of man is remedied through God's righteousness which was seen in the Substitionary sacrife of Christ, and this redemption is appropriate only when a person believes This text is not addressing Regeneration.

And your assertion would be that we are regenerated BEFORE we have the righteousness of God?

No. All who "believe" (know, assent, appropriate) receive the righteousness of God (justification) by faith (grace-gift of God) in Christ.

It is true. Righteousness is "GIVEN" to us, like faith and the indwelling Spirit/regeneration, by the grace of God. But the gospel is NOT grace unless it is believed. And it's pretty simple what the gospel is --- it is (in our case) either 1) "I'm saved in Christ" or 2) "I'm saved because I was chosen by God."

Most of the Jews made/make the latter mistake, too, BTW. "Our father Abraham blah, blah, blah" "To us belong the blah, blah, blah." They trusted in their nationality and in their religion, TC. They "undercut" what Christ came to establish.

TC, do you believe there is ANY judicial aspect of salvation? When is your "day in court?"

3. There's nothing convoluted about Acts 18:27, "those who had believed through grace," NASB). It was "through grace" that they believed. That's clear as crystal (ask Billy).

I added there are simpler verses.

5. God does grant sinners pardon because of His grace (Rom 3:21-30 makes that quite clear). But not until we put our faith in His Son and that divine transfer takes place, do we hear, Not guilty!

Good! And the "divine transfer" of regeneration likewise! God does "grant sinners pardon" based on belief in Christ and He grants those same sinners regeneration based on belief in Christ (the belief mentioned above). Fix YOUR sotierology, TC! :laugh:

6. Jesus will forever remain my Savior, but it was because of grace why He became my Savior---grace is for the undeserving--that's me!

You don't have to deserve it BUT YOU DO HAVE TO ASK FOR IT. Again, what you seem to believe is that because you are "elect," God gives you grace and salvation and regeneration and eternal life for which you would never ask much less ask how. Let me ask you -- did you ever ask "What shall I do to be saved?" (Acts 2:37) If so, what did you decide?

7. No where in Scripture do we [correction: "nowhere do YOU read] read that the body is now redeemed. According to Paul, the Redemption of our body comes later (Rom 8:23, "we also groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for adoption, the redemption of our bodies," HCSB, emphasis mine). It seems like you have something against what Paul is saying.

What I am saying is that if you were still the same man with the same plans and same ideals before and after you knew Christ, you weren't born again. "That which thou sowest is not quickened except it die. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be... But God giveth it a body as it pleaseth Him, and to every seed his own body." What do you think "rebirth" is all about anyway? What do you think baptism symbolized, TC? Or even marriage if not death to the rest of the women and life unto your spouse?

You may not have had this experience, TC. Canadyjd is, as well, hesitant to embrace the marriage analogy of Eph 5. Maybe you weren't a "new man" after you were saved. Maybe baptism only meant to you that one day you will be buried and then resurrected. I can understand it would be hard to comprehend something you had not experienced, TC.

8. Both our Bibles read, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people," ESV). Salvation come through the grace of God--no grace of God, no salvation.

Well, Christ was certainly "the Grace" that appeared. So too is the grace that appears in every Christian. But bringing it and "making them drink" are 2 different propositions.

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

And your assertion would be that we are regenerated BEFORE we have the righteousness of God?

1. Skypair, I take my cue from the Scripture. Luke says that God opened the heart of Lydia to respond to the Word preached by Paul (Acts 16:14).

No. All who "believe" (know, assent, appropriate) receive the righteousness of God (justification) by faith (grace-gift of God) in Christ.

It is true. Righteousness is "GIVEN" to us, like faith and the indwelling Spirit/regeneration, by the grace of God. But the gospel is NOT grace unless it is believed. And it's pretty simple what the gospel is --- it is (in our case) either 1) "I'm saved in Christ" or 2) "I'm saved because I was chosen by God."

2. It was because of the grace of God that we are saved through faith (Eph 2:8; Acts 18:27). Graces brings faith about.

Most of the Jews made/make the latter mistake, too, BTW. "Our father Abraham blah, blah, blah" "To us belong the blah, blah, blah." They trusted in their nationality and in their religion, TC. They "undercut" what Christ came to establish.

TC, do you believe there is ANY judicial aspect of salvation? When is your "day in court?"

3. The gospel was shared, God opened my heart, I responded with repentance and faith toward Jesus Christ, where Christ took my place and I took His place (2 Cor 5:21). The transaction was made. God has already judged me in His Son.

Good! And the "divine transfer" of regeneration likewise! God does "grant sinners pardon" based on belief in Christ and He grants those same sinners regeneration based on belief in Christ (the belief mentioned above). Fix YOUR sotierology, TC! :laugh:

4. We'll have to shake hands on Regeneration.

You don't have to deserve it BUT YOU DO HAVE TO ASK FOR IT. Again, what you seem to believe is that because you are "elect," God gives you grace and salvation and regeneration and eternal life for which you would never ask much less ask how. Let me ask you -- did you ever ask "What shall I do to be saved?" (Acts 2:37) If so, what did you decide?

5. When God opened my eyes to behold the majesty of His Son and the mess of my sins, I asked that question.

What I am saying is that if you were still the same man with the same plans and same ideals before and after you knew Christ, you weren't born again. "That which thou sowest is not quickened except it die. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be... But God giveth it a body as it pleaseth Him, and to every seed his own body." What do you think "rebirth" is all about anyway? What do you think baptism symbolized, TC? Or even marriage if not death to the rest of the women and life unto your spouse?

6. Baptism is a powerful portrayal of what happens in the conversion experience: death, burial and resurrection (Rom 6:3, 4). My eyes were opened to Jesus and my need to make Him my savior because of my sins--my sins separated me from my God, making me dead. And when I trusted Jesus I was forgiven of those sins.

7. God opening my eyes to my sins didn't mean that my sins were forgiven--I had to trust Jesus for that to happen, but my eyes needed to be opened to my need for a Savior.

You may not have had this experience, TC. Canadyjd is, as well, hesitant to embrace the marriage analogy of Eph 5. Maybe you weren't a "new man" after you were saved. Maybe baptism only meant to you that one day you will be buried and then resurrected. I can understand it would be hard to comprehend something you had not experienced, TC.

8. That analogy in Eph 5 is between Christ and His church.

 

[skypair]

1. Skypair, I take my cue from the Scripture. Luke says that God opened the heart of Lydia to respond to the Word preached by Paul (Acts 16:14).

Well, of course He did! The Spirit is all around us ready to shed His light on the truth! The Spirit was, to use Jesus words, "dwelt with [her], and shall be in [her]." (Jo 14:17) But if the Spirit wasn't IN the disciples, what opened there hearts to Jesus but that being WITH them is enough??

2. It was because of the grace of God that we are saved through faith (Eph 2:8; Acts 18:27). Graces brings faith about.

Grace of God on who? You say "the elect," I say "believers."

3. The gospel was shared, God opened my heart, I responded with repentance and faith toward Jesus Christ, where Christ took my place and I took His place (2 Cor 5:21). The transaction was made. God has already judged me in His Son.

Good -- so is "God opened my heart" regeneration or merely enlightenment?

I see you later agree to agree that it comes after repentance. ("We'll have to shake hands on Regeneration.") That's also as it should be. But now that we are uncovering so many flaws in Calvinism, don't you want to rethink the whole thing?

6. Baptism is a powerful portrayal of what happens in the conversion experience: death, burial and resurrection (Rom 6:3, 4). My eyes were opened to Jesus and my need to make Him my savior because of my sins--my sins separated me from my God, making me dead. And when I trusted Jesus I was forgiven of those sins.

Even stronger than that, TC!! Rom 6:6, 8 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed... For he that is dead is freed [footnote: "justified"] from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him." IOW, it isn't the sin that makes you "dead" in baptism or in salvation. It is YOU burying your body -- everything of the still-living mind, will, emotions, and flesh -- that belongs to the "old man" or "old nature."

And then having these "resurrected" to new life! It's not the "sins" that are buried -- it's the SINNER!

8. That analogy in Eph 5 is between Christ and His church.

I think by submitting that, you deny the individuality of the 10 virgins, TC. Yes, Paul is speaking only of "church." But when you come right down to it, it isn't the church that marries Christ but each person who believes (and some, according to the parable of the virgins, don't).

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

Well, of course He did! The Spirit is all around us ready to shed His light on the truth! The Spirit was, to use Jesus words, "dwelt with [her], and shall be in [her]." (Jo 14:17) But if the Spirit wasn't IN the disciples, what opened there hearts to Jesus but that being WITH them is enough??

1. Skypair, you have completely reinterpreted the meaning of Acts 16:14---How could you have missed it?

Grace of God on who? You say "the elect," I say "believers."

2. Grace brings salvation to all people, and they are not believers to begin (Titus 2:11).

Good -- so is "God opened my heart" regeneration or merely enlightenment?

3. God must open the heart of the sinner to be behold Christ and then repent and believe.

I see you later agree to agree that it comes after repentance. ("We'll have to shake hands on Regeneration.") That's also as it should be. But now that we are uncovering so many flaws in Calvinism, don't you want to rethink the whole thing?

4. When the Scripture gives me reasons to then I'd change my view.

Even stronger than that, TC!! Rom 6:6, 8 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed... For he that is dead is freed [footnote: "justified"] from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him." IOW, it isn't the sin that makes you "dead" in baptism or in salvation. It is YOU burying your body -- everything of the still-living mind, will, emotions, and flesh -- that belongs to the "old man" or "old nature."

5. While the inner person has been renewed, the body still awaits its redemption (Rom 8:23).

I think by submitting that, you deny the individuality of the 10 virgins, TC. Yes, Paul is speaking only of "church." But when you come right down to it, it isn't the church that marries Christ but each person who believes (and some, according to the parable of the virgins, don't).

skypair

6. I'm only trying to let the Scripture speak.

 

[skypair]

1. Skypair, you have completely reinterpreted the meaning of Acts 16:14---How could you have missed it?

We both missed the other's point, I'm sure. :laugh: My point would be that God "opens the heart" without indwelling (being IN) the heart of the lost person. The Spirit, in this case, comes from outside. It is "with" the Word and the preaching.

2. Grace brings salvation to all people, and they are not believers to begin (Titus 2:11).

I think I see your point here. The fact that the Holy Spirit is "with" us -- that God is very near -- is grace, too.

3. God must open the heart of the sinner to be behold Christ and then [they?] repent and believe.

Yeah, that's good!

4. When the Scripture gives me reasons to then I'd change my view.

How many reasons will you need, dear brother? Have we not established that "election"/salvation is conditional? Have we not established that it is WE who change our own hearts (repent toward God) when we hear the truth? Have we not learned that it is only then that regeneration takes place? And that MAN is sovereign over and thus responsible for his own salvation decision?

Do you still not think that Calvinism gives us an imperfect picture of scripture?

5. While the inner person has been renewed, the body still awaits its redemption (Rom 8:23).

Rom 5:13 (further confirmation of 5:4-8) -- "Neither yield yourselves as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God as those who are alive from the dead..." The redemption of the body is daily. It is part of "sanctification." But we are to "reckon" it to be redeemed by the power of God's Spirit in this life also.

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

We both missed the other's point, I'm sure. :laugh: My point would be that God "opens the heart" without indwelling (being IN) the heart of the lost person. The Spirit, in this case, comes from outside. It is "with" the Word and the preaching.

1. I agree to everything you outlined there.

I think I see your point here. The fact that the Holy Spirit is "with" us -- that God is very near -- is grace, too.

2. Grace is God's lovingkindness to the undeserving.

How many reasons will you need, dear brother? Have we not established that "election"/salvation is conditional? Have we not established that it is WE who change our own hearts (repent toward God) when we hear the truth? Have we not learned that it is only then that regeneration takes place? And that MAN is sovereign over and thus responsible for his own salvation decision?

3. The only how the sinner can come to God is for God to make the first move in drawing the sinner to Himself and opening the sinner's heart to repent and believe. That is what I see in Scripture.

4. No where does Scripture teach that man is sovereign over his salvation.

Rom 5:13 (further confirmation of 5:4-8) -- "Neither yield yourselves as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God as those who are alive from the dead..." The redemption of the body is daily. It is part of "sanctification." But we are to "reckon" it to be redeemed by the power of God's Spirit in this life also.

5. I believe you are referring to Rom 6:13 not 5:13---at any rate, Paul is not speaking of the redemption of the body, but the believer be totally devoted to the service of God.

 

[skypair]

4. No where does Scripture teach that man is sovereign over his salvation.

God makes the first move, yeah. But it's NOT a saving move. It's a revealing move.

5. I believe you are referring to Rom 6:13 not 5:13---at any rate, Paul is not speaking of the redemption of the body, but the believer be totally devoted to the service of God.

Let me ask you if you think that living the Christian life saves the flesh, literally -- health, wealth, honor? Just like a husband "saves" his wife's "body," Eph 5:23 This could be an epiphany for you! It pays to serve God!

Oh, and BTW, I found the marriage to each of us alludied to in Rom 7:4 -- "Wherefore... ye are dead to the law ... that ye might be married to another, even to Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh..."

skypair

 

[Armchair Scholar]

1. Once the Holy Spirit has taken up residence in a believer, that believer is sealed forever. The believer may fall into sin and even grieve the Spirit, but he is still sealed. He may even "quench the Spirit," but he is still sealed.

2. This seals shows both ownership and security--we who belong to God are His forever (see Eph 1:13, 13; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:21, 22; 1 Thess 5:19).

That's what Scripture says and I agree. :thumbs:

 

[TCGreek]

God makes the first move, yeah. But it's NOT a saving move. It's a revealing move.

1. It's a move that draws and opens the heart of the sinner to behold Christ and at the same time his sinfulness and a need for that Savior and Lord, Jesus.

2. That's the type of move I see in Scripture that God takes first.

Let me ask you if you think that living the Christian life saves the flesh, literally -- health, wealth, honor? Just like a husband "saves" his wife's "body," Eph 5:23 This could be an epiphany for you! It pays to serve God!

3. It seems that you have mytical way of interpreting plain Scripture. At any rate, we do not save the flesh by our good works. At the return of Scripture, our bodies would be changed to his glorious body--we'll receive the redemption of our bodies, which we are eagerly anticipationg (Phil 3:20; Rom 8:23)

Oh, and BTW, I found the marriage to each of us alludied to in Rom 7:4 -- "Wherefore... ye are dead to the law ... that ye might be married to another, even to Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh..."

skypair

4. Good Skypair! Once you can show me in Scripture, I can accept it. Believers have that individually loyalty to Christ because we have been bought with a price and we belong to another (1 Cor 6:19, 20).

 

[skypair]

1. It's a move that draws and opens the heart of the sinner to behold Christ and at the same time his sinfulness and a need for that Savior and Lord, Jesus.

So we're back to He only draws some people, right? Those whom He chose. For everyone else, the gospel is just a "bad commercial" interrupting the "program" of life. Sorry, friend, but that "commercial" has worldwide "broadcast" and is meant to "appeal" ("open the heart") to EVERYONE. ANYONE who wants to "buy," can. I don't, for the life of me, see how you 'discern' that scripture says it is a "targetted appeal."

3. It seems that you have mytical way of interpreting plain Scripture. At any rate, we do not save the flesh by our good works. At the return of Scripture, our bodies would be changed to his glorious body--we'll receive the redemption of our bodies, which we are eagerly anticipationg (Phil 3:20; Rom 8:23)

Wow! Tell that to Solomon, pls. (Prov 22:4). You really are like the Corinthians, aren't you (1Cor 15:12)? You're not wrong about the ultimate destiny but you sure missed the implications of godly SAVED living vs. natural living.

4. Good Skypair! Once you can show me in Scripture, I can accept it. Believers have that individual loyalty to Christ because we have been bought with a price and we belong to another (1 Cor 6:19, 20).

Why do you sound like a Catholic with that last remark ("belong to one another?")? We belong to CHRIST. Why is the "body" in 1Cor 6:19 not that of a fiancee or spouse?

Let me ask you -- do you consider everyone who goes to your "church" to be saved? That Christ is married already to believers and unbelieving "elect?" What? I'm having a hard time fathoming what this "church" that you say the analogy is to 1Cor 6:19-20. Are you saying that the "temple" there refers to the whole church and not to individuals?

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

So we're back to He only draws some people, right? Those whom He chose. For everyone else, the gospel is just a "bad commercial" interrupting the "program" of life. Sorry, friend, but that "commercial" has worldwide "broadcast" and is meant to "appeal" ("open the heart") to EVERYONE. ANYONE who wants to "buy," can. I don't, for the life of me, see how you 'discern' that scripture says it is a "targetted appeal."

1. If man on his own hates God and the things of God and cannot come to God on his own, then what other explanation is there for some actually coming to God for salvation, except what we read in John 6:65?

Wow! Tell that to Solomon, pls. (Prov 22:4). You really are like the Corinthians, aren't you (1Cor 15:12)? You're not wrong about the ultimate destiny but you sure missed the implications of godly SAVED living vs. natural living.

2. Are you sold on that health and wealth "gospel"? How come the greatest Christian, Paul, never promoted that health and wealth stuff?

3. In fact, Paul was not ashamed to enumerate the countless sufferings he endured for the gospel's sake (2 Cor 11:23ff).

Why do you sound like a Catholic with that last remark ("belong to one another?")? We belong to CHRIST. Why is the "body" in 1Cor 6:19 not that of a fiancee or spouse?

4. I meant to say God as a good Calvinist would. :thumbs:

Let me ask you -- do you consider everyone who goes to your "church" to be saved? That Christ is married already to believers and unbelieving "elect?" What? I'm having a hard time fathoming what this "church" that you say the analogy is to 1Cor 6:19-20. Are you saying that the "temple" there refers to the whole church and not to individuals?

5. There are going to be Tares among the Wheat. I didn't make that up--Christ explicitly says that (Matt 13).