Sealed Forever

Gladly, jne! :godisgood: We have had this discussion many times here on BB and it always comes down to "it's the same word in the Greek." Well, that may be but there are alternative renderings of it even in theological dictionaries.

I always go to Heb 11:1 -- "Faith is the substance of things [believed] hoped for and the evidence of things unseen." When we "believe," we are really
hoping" that the promises of God are true just like at the same time we hope for heaven "when it is all over." But when we ask Christ into our lives, an amazing thing happens -- we receive FAITH AND the Holy Spirit's regeneration. Guess what. That is SUBSTANCE and that is EVIDENCE that what God promised, what we hoped for, is TRUE!!

As I have also given before, faith = knowledge + assent + appropriation. That is, mind, emotion, and will are involved in repentance to God and conversion. Missing any of these is "missing the mark" (it's why many hear but aren't saved) BUT doing all of these is JUSTIFICATION -- step #1 in salvation. And the "outcome" of these is that God GIVES you faith, regeneration, ... all the gifts of the Spirit (1Cor 12:7-11)!

Does that answer your question or shall I go on?

Yes, the "righteousness of God" is the OT description of "justification." You realize, don't you, that in the OT they did not receive the "evidence" of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The interesting thing about the indwelling HS is that this is what is called "grace" in the NT. That is why this is called the "age of grace," jne. God "gave" faith in the OT. But in their case, it was secular proof - riches, honor, health, Prov 3:16 for example.

Picture yourself as Abram. You hear God. You do what He says (leave Ur -- or Noah, you start building the ark). You believe God but you have no "proof." Faith is not in intellectual assent -- it is in OBEDIENCE/appropriation!

Summary: faith begins with belief -- knowledge, assent, appropriation. When it gets past your SPIRIT (mind, emotions, and will), it changes your SOUL!

skypair

 

TC,

The wife "beckons." I'll look into that and get back tomorrow. :smilewinkgrin:

skypair

 

Thanks for the explanation. I still see no difference in the two words from the context of the Scripture cited, nor do I see in Heb. 11:1 the word "faith" being any different than if he had said "belief", for, they are the same idea is conveyed by both words. But, you are entitled to your opinion as much as I am I have seen where you make the distinction on other posts & thought I would ask. Thanks! In Noah's case, I see that his faith produced his works. I do believe that at this time God's grace has been manifested, but, (I am not saying you believe it was not) I also believe God's grace was operational and bestowed in the OT as well.

 

Rom 3:22 gets to the issue of justification which comes before regeneration. When we believe (know, assent, apporpriate or as Dr. Rogers used to say know, reckon, yield - also from Romans), we are judged by God to have His righteousness and faith.

Now in our days, God then gives us "into the kingdom of His Son" with all the spiritual "benes" of sanctification --- the indwelling Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit (1Cor 12:7-11), the new birth, the adoption of sons, etc.

Those a pretty convoluted texts to me -- less clear than Rom 5:1-2, 10. But let me ask you -- is "grace" a judicial option for God? Can He just say, "Not guilty by reason of My grace?" Because what I am saying is that God's justice must be satisfied regarding each of us and it is my understanding that it can ONLY be done by "pleading the blood of Jesus" on my behalf.

Whereas some might plead for God's grace and love, that isn't the way His justice operates.

So grace is the reason you are saved and not Jesus?

Yes -- that sounds to me like sanctification that begins immediately upon belief and repentance toward God.

Um, do you not consider the body "redeemed" by the new birth? Does it not become then the temple of God? Does God not give it a body as it pleaseth Him? Is it not called a "body of terrestrial glory" at that point?
(1Cor 15:29-41)

I'm glad you brought those verses to my attention and I will study and see if I have put too fine an edge on my "double edged sword." :laugh: The one thing I think you believe and agree on is that "Jesus saves," not grace. Grace is an outcome of salvation. It could be a precursor to salvation being that grace appears to be administered by the Holy Spirit. And God IS rich in mercy (not giving us what we do deserve) in forgiving our sins and grace (giving us what we don't and can't deserve) in saving us. But He only saves us "in Christ." We have to get "in" there somehow.

But there is also a reason why this is called the "age of grace" whereaas the previous was called "age of law." I am trying to show you that eternal salvation is through Jesus sacrifice -- not grace, not "election" -- but Jesus was "raised for our justification."

skypair

 

Let's illiustrate it with "low hanging fruit," then, shall we?

Before you married, you hoped and believed your wife would follow through with her promise (and she you). You might have even used the word "faith" to describe it.

But what if she never began making preparations for the wedding or the honeymoon or the home and life you would share. Faith is "engendered" by works whereas belief or hope has no evidence or substance.

Dr Rogers used to give the good illustration that "spiritual growth is one step after another -- faith, works, faith, works,..." But it all starts with a hope and a
promise, doesn't it?

skypair

 

I see what you are saying, yet, I think the illustration is lacking for this reason. The faith or belief is toward God. In either case, works are a consequence of faith. The hope, belief, faith is in God who Has already shown Himself faithful. The faith is given from Him.


In your illustration, it would be God hoping I would produce works. God is not hoping to see my fruit. To God my fruit is guaranteed in the new birth, for it is His production. If your illustration went the other way, I would be hoping God would keep His end of the salvation promise. I do not believe that this is the idea behind the word "faith" or "believe". The faith of Abraham counted God's promise as guaranteed & received it as such.

As I said before, there is no difference in the idea conveyed by the word's "faith" or "believe". There is to my knowledge no Scripture that says that God gives faith to the one who believes. That is, making a difference between the two. And seems unwarranted to make such a distinction.

 

You don't understand Calvinism.

Dan V.

 

You're new here aren't you? :laugh:

 

And your assertion would be that we are regenerated BEFORE we have the righteousness of God?

No. All who "believe" (know, assent, appropriate) receive the righteousness of God (justification) by faith (grace-gift of God) in Christ.

It is true. Righteousness is "GIVEN" to us, like faith and the indwelling Spirit/regeneration, by the grace of God. But the gospel is NOT grace unless it is believed. And it's pretty simple what the gospel is --- it is (in our case) either 1) "I'm saved in Christ" or 2) "I'm saved because I was chosen by God."

Most of the Jews made/make the latter mistake, too, BTW. "Our father Abraham blah, blah, blah" "To us belong the blah, blah, blah." They trusted in their nationality and in their religion, TC. They "undercut" what Christ came to establish.

TC, do you believe there is ANY judicial aspect of salvation? When is your "day in court?"

I added there are simpler verses.

Good! And the "divine transfer" of regeneration likewise! God does "grant sinners pardon" based on belief in Christ and He grants those same sinners regeneration based on belief in Christ (the belief mentioned above). Fix YOUR sotierology, TC! :laugh:

You don't have to deserve it BUT YOU DO HAVE TO ASK FOR IT. Again, what you seem to believe is that because you are "elect," God gives you grace and salvation and regeneration and eternal life for which you would never ask much less ask how. Let me ask you -- did you ever ask "What shall I do to be saved?" (Acts 2:37) If so, what did you decide?

What I am saying is that if you were still the same man with the same plans and same ideals before and after you knew Christ, you weren't born again. "That which thou sowest is not quickened except it die. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be... But God giveth it a body as it pleaseth Him, and to every seed his own body." What do you think "rebirth" is all about anyway? What do you think baptism symbolized, TC? Or even marriage if not death to the rest of the women and life unto your spouse?

You may not have had this experience, TC. Canadyjd is, as well, hesitant to embrace the marriage analogy of Eph 5. Maybe you weren't a "new man" after you were saved. Maybe baptism only meant to you that one day you will be buried and then resurrected. I can understand it would be hard to comprehend something you had not experienced, TC.

Well, Christ was certainly "the Grace" that appeared. So too is the grace that appears in every Christian. But bringing it and "making them drink" are 2 different propositions.

skypair

 

Well, of course He did! The Spirit is all around us ready to shed His light on the truth! The Spirit was, to use Jesus words, "dwelt with [her], and shall be in [her]." (Jo 14:17) But if the Spirit wasn't IN the disciples, what opened there hearts to Jesus but that being WITH them is enough??

Grace of God on who? You say "the elect," I say "believers."

Good -- so is "God opened my heart" regeneration or merely enlightenment?

I see you later agree to agree that it comes after repentance. ("We'll have to shake hands on Regeneration.") That's also as it should be. But now that we are uncovering so many flaws in Calvinism, don't you want to rethink the whole thing?

Even stronger than that, TC!! Rom 6:6, 8 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed... For he that is dead is freed [footnote: "justified"] from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him." IOW, it isn't the sin that makes you "dead" in baptism or in salvation. It is YOU burying your body -- everything of the still-living mind, will, emotions, and flesh -- that belongs to the "old man" or "old nature."

And then having these "resurrected" to new life! It's not the "sins" that are buried -- it's the SINNER!

I think by submitting that, you deny the individuality of the 10 virgins, TC. Yes, Paul is speaking only of "church." But when you come right down to it, it isn't the church that marries Christ but each person who believes (and some, according to the parable of the virgins, don't).

skypair

 

We both missed the other's point, I'm sure. :laugh: My point would be that God "opens the heart" without indwelling (being IN) the heart of the lost person. The Spirit, in this case, comes from outside. It is "with" the Word and the preaching.

I think I see your point here. The fact that the Holy Spirit is "with" us -- that God is very near -- is grace, too.

Yeah, that's good!

How many reasons will you need, dear brother? Have we not established that "election"/salvation is conditional? Have we not established that it is WE who change our own hearts (repent toward God) when we hear the truth? Have we not learned that it is only then that regeneration takes place? And that MAN is sovereign over and thus responsible for his own salvation decision?

Do you still not think that Calvinism gives us an imperfect picture of scripture?

Rom 5:13 (further confirmation of 5:4-8) -- "Neither yield yourselves as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God as those who are alive from the dead..." The redemption of the body is daily. It is part of "sanctification." But we are to "reckon" it to be redeemed by the power of God's Spirit in this life also.

skypair

 

God makes the first move, yeah. But it's NOT a saving move. It's a revealing move.

Let me ask you if you think that living the Christian life saves the flesh, literally -- health, wealth, honor? Just like a husband "saves" his wife's "body," Eph 5:23 This could be an epiphany for you! It pays to serve God!

Oh, and BTW, I found the marriage to each of us alludied to in Rom 7:4 -- "Wherefore... ye are dead to the law ... that ye might be married to another, even to Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh..."

skypair

 

That's what Scripture says and I agree. :thumbs:

 

So we're back to He only draws some people, right? Those whom He chose. For everyone else, the gospel is just a "bad commercial" interrupting the "program" of life. Sorry, friend, but that "commercial" has worldwide "broadcast" and is meant to "appeal" ("open the heart") to EVERYONE. ANYONE who wants to "buy," can. I don't, for the life of me, see how you 'discern' that scripture says it is a "targetted appeal."

Wow! Tell that to Solomon, pls. (Prov 22:4). You really are like the Corinthians, aren't you (1Cor 15:12)? You're not wrong about the ultimate destiny but you sure missed the implications of godly SAVED living vs. natural living.

Why do you sound like a Catholic with that last remark ("belong to one another?")? We belong to CHRIST. Why is the "body" in 1Cor 6:19 not that of a fiancee or spouse?

Let me ask you -- do you consider everyone who goes to your "church" to be saved? That Christ is married already to believers and unbelieving "elect?" What? I'm having a hard time fathoming what this "church" that you say the analogy is to 1Cor 6:19-20. Are you saying that the "temple" there refers to the whole church and not to individuals?

skypair