security

Now, that is what I call a good spin! :thumbs:

 

Excellent point, Isaiah!! We are "preserved" spiritually -- but we also "perservere" in this life. Perservere and you are "saved" in this life -- but you are still preserved in eternity if you believe!!

You know, my mom used to show me this. In the OT, persevering led to the "good life" --- Prov 3:16, length of days, honor, and riches. Same today! Is life not treating you right? Maybe you aren't "perservering." Maybe you don't know how, eh?

Perserverence is rewarding in this life, no doubt about it. You Calvinists -- life ain't so bad that free will is an option, right? But which is scriptural??

skypair

 

Not sure where the "free will" as "an option" comes into this topic, but your exuberance is nice.

 

:tear: :tear: :tear: You're missing the point. What if "dragged" isn't what He does? What if, for all His "drawing," it is still you that needs to "come?"

skypair

 

Note to all:

Perseverence = sanctification.

Preservation = justification.

You can persevere in a life that is not justified/saved. You cannot be preserved in a life that is not justified/saved.

To make it plain as day --- the Pharisees perservered though lost. Paul perservered while he was preserved no matter how much you perservere.

Does that answer your question, Isa 40:28?

skypair

 

What does scripture say?


John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

1670 helkuo {hel-koo'-o} or helko {hel'-ko}
probably akin to 138; TDNT - 2:503,227; v
AV - draw 8; 8
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
(strong's number 1670)

Aside from the fact that the word is used elsewhere to mean "drag" as in "drag you before the judgement seats", it is important to note that this verse teaches EXCLUSION, not INCLUSION. No one, not anyone, not a single person can come to Jesus unless the Father "draws" him. It is impossible to come to Jesus otherwise. That's the message here.

 

I'm on board with this careful analysis.

 

It's not just one verse, it's what the verse says.

So what is the non-Cal source of security? The fact that you made a decision? So what? Decide you're Napoleon. Does that make you feel secure that you really are Napoleon?

You can decide all you want, whatever you want. It's what God does that matters. If you're not drawing your security from the same source (the testimony of the Spirit with your spirit, as it says in Romans), then you have no reason to feel secure.

 

Compatibilism ? That will be a nice subject for another thread, you know.

 

I'm with you.

 

Me too. :thumbs:

 

Well, then go back and read all the posts, not just a selective reading.
The first two Calvinists who responded both provided different verses from the gospel of John and didn't even mention Romans.

Since you didn't ask anyone to provide you with an exhasutive list of verses to answer the question, I don't think you should be that critical of the answers that were supplied.

 

Again, what is your alternative? That you made a decision? Why is that anything more tangible than a feeling? Your personal decision about anything means nothing.

If you think it means something, show me with scripture. Where does it say in the Bible that we can know we are children of God because we decided something?

 

Parallel verse you fail to mention: John 6:40 - "And this is the will of him that sent me, [1] that every one which seeth the Son [drawn], and [2] believeth on him [come], may have everlasting life: [3] and I will raise him up at the last day."

Now some "drawn" don't "come." That's John 6:36 - "But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me [drawn], and believe not [didn't come]."

See how that works, npeterely??

skypair

 

You mean how you add you own words in brackets that aren't actually there?
Yeah, that's pretty neat.

LOL

 

Yeah, I thought that was [not] very clever, too.

 

It's kind of hard to point out how you've misapplied the verses from John when you never discussed your interpretation of them.
You discarded them and went on to ask about a person can be certain of their election. And then didn't like it that only one verse from Romans was brought to the table.
Perhaps the passages from John should be revisited by you in their immediate context to help you in your study.