security

[TCGreek]

If God "dragged" me to him and saved me as a result of that "dragging", why should I disparage His means? I love Him all the more for His persistence and His patience.

Now, that is what I call a good spin! :thumbs:

 

[skypair]

I don't have a problem with either term being used. I think both perseverence and preservation express what compatibilism teaches. God preserves us as His elect, yet we persevere in our salvation as we ought.
I don't think it has to be either/or.
Both terms describe what is being done by each member of the covenant.

Excellent point, Isaiah!! We are "preserved" spiritually -- but we also "perservere" in this life. Perservere and you are "saved" in this life -- but you are still preserved in eternity if you believe!!

You know, my mom used to show me this. In the OT, persevering led to the "good life" --- Prov 3:16, length of days, honor, and riches. Same today! Is life not treating you right? Maybe you aren't "perservering." Maybe you don't know how, eh?

Perserverence is rewarding in this life, no doubt about it. You Calvinists -- life ain't so bad that free will is an option, right? But which is scriptural??

skypair

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Excellent point, Isaiah!! We are "preserved" spiritually -- but we also "perservere" in this life. Perservere and you are "saved" in this life -- but you are still preserved in eternity if you believe!!

You know, my mom used to show me this. In the OT, persevering led to the "good life" --- Prov 3:16, length of days, honor, and riches. Same today! Is life not treating you right? Maybe you aren't "perservering." Maybe you don't know how, eh?

Perserverence is rewarding in this life, no doubt about it. You Calvinists -- life ain't so bad that free will is an option, right? But which is scriptural??

skypair

Not sure where the "free will" as "an option" comes into this topic, but your exuberance is nice.

 

[skypair]

If God "dragged" me to him and saved me as a result of that "dragging", why should I disparage His means? I love Him all the more for His persistence and His patience.

:tear: :tear: :tear: You're missing the point. What if "dragged" isn't what He does? What if, for all His "drawing," it is still you that needs to "come?"

skypair

 

[skypair]

Note to all:

Perseverence = sanctification.

Preservation = justification.

You can persevere in a life that is not justified/saved. You cannot be preserved in a life that is not justified/saved.

To make it plain as day --- the Pharisees perservered though lost. Paul perservered while he was preserved no matter how much you perservere.

Does that answer your question, Isa 40:28?

skypair

 

[npetreley]

:tear: :tear: :tear: You're missing the point. What if "dragged" isn't what He does? What if, for all His "drawing," it is still you that needs to "come?"

skypair

What does scripture say?


John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

1670 helkuo {hel-koo'-o} or helko {hel'-ko}
probably akin to 138; TDNT - 2:503,227; v
AV - draw 8; 8
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
(strong's number 1670)

Aside from the fact that the word is used elsewhere to mean "drag" as in "drag you before the judgement seats", it is important to note that this verse teaches EXCLUSION, not INCLUSION. No one, not anyone, not a single person can come to Jesus unless the Father "draws" him. It is impossible to come to Jesus otherwise. That's the message here.

 

[TCGreek]

What does scripture say?


John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

1670 helkuo {hel-koo'-o} or helko {hel'-ko}
probably akin to 138; TDNT - 2:503,227; v
AV - draw 8; 8
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
(strong's number 1670)

Aside from the fact that the word is used elsewhere to mean "drag" as in "drag you before the judgement seats", it is important to note that this verse teaches EXCLUSION, not INCLUSION. No one, not anyone, not a single person can come to Jesus unless the Father "draws" him. It is impossible to come to Jesus otherwise. That's the message here.

I'm on board with this careful analysis.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Perhaps a discussion of just who it is the Father draws would be in order. Perhaps in a different thread. (actually, this might be pertinant to this thread, I'm not sure. )

Okay, so let me get straight what I think I've read over the last coupla days.

Those Cals who have answered, believe you have eternal security and you can know that you have certainly been saved/chosen based on one verse out of Romans? Just one verse? Cause for me these two go hand in hand and I've always been sorta reluctant to base my beliefs on just one verse.

It seems, eternal security can be argued for from both a Cal or nonCal point of view. But now I really want to know more about being certain you are indeed chosen and I'd really like more than just one verse.

 

[npetreley]

Those Cals who have answered, believe you have eternal security and you can know that you have certainly been saved/chosen based on one verse out of Romans? Just one verse? Cause for me these two go hand in hand and I've always been sorta reluctant to base my beliefs on just one verse.

It's not just one verse, it's what the verse says.

So what is the non-Cal source of security? The fact that you made a decision? So what? Decide you're Napoleon. Does that make you feel secure that you really are Napoleon?

You can decide all you want, whatever you want. It's what God does that matters. If you're not drawing your security from the same source (the testimony of the Spirit with your spirit, as it says in Romans), then you have no reason to feel secure.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I don't have a problem with either term being used. I think both perseverence and preservation express what compatibilism teaches. God preserves us as His elect, yet we persevere in our salvation as we ought.

Compatibilism ? That will be a nice subject for another thread, you know.

 

[pinoybaptist]

.......... If you're not drawing your security from the same source (the testimony of the Spirit with your spirit, as it says in Romans), then you have no reason to feel secure.

I'm with you.

 

[TCGreek]

I'm with you.

Me too. :thumbs:

 

[menageriekeeper]

Originally Posted by menageriekeeper
Those Cals who have answered, believe you have eternal security and you can know that you have certainly been saved/chosen based on one verse out of Romans? Just one verse? Cause for me these two go hand in hand and I've always been sorta reluctant to base my beliefs on just one verse.

It's not just one verse, it's what the verse says.

So what is the non-Cal source of security? The fact that you made a decision? So what? Decide you're Napoleon. Does that make you feel secure that you really are Napoleon?

You can decide all you want, whatever you want. It's what God does that matters. If you're not drawing your security from the same source (the testimony of the Spirit with your spirit, as it says in Romans), then you have no reason to feel secure.

That's a nice little tangent, Npet. Did you read the last paragraph?

It seems, eternal security can be argued for from both a Cal or nonCal point of view. But now I really want to know more about being certain you are indeed chosen and I'd really like more than just one verse.

How do you know you are chosen other than what appears to just be a feeling. (and I know how hard it is to explain "the testimony of the Spirit with your spirit"). Now if you can't be saved until/unless you are chosen, how do you know you are chosen? If you can't know you are chosen, then how do you apply eternal security to your beliefs?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Perhaps a discussion of just who it is the Father draws would be in order. Perhaps in a different thread. (actually, this might be pertinant to this thread, I'm not sure. )

Okay, so let me get straight what I think I've read over the last coupla days.

Those Cals who have answered, believe you have eternal security and you can know that you have certainly been saved/chosen based on one verse out of Romans? Just one verse? Cause for me these two go hand in hand and I've always been sorta reluctant to base my beliefs on just one verse.

It seems, eternal security can be argued for from both a Cal or nonCal point of view. But now I really want to know more about being certain you are indeed chosen and I'd really like more than just one verse.

Well, then go back and read all the posts, not just a selective reading.
The first two Calvinists who responded both provided different verses from the gospel of John and didn't even mention Romans.

Since you didn't ask anyone to provide you with an exhasutive list of verses to answer the question, I don't think you should be that critical of the answers that were supplied.

 

[npetreley]

How do you know you are chosen other than what appears to just be a feeling. (and I know how hard it is to explain "the testimony of the Spirit with your spirit"). Now if you can't be saved until/unless you are chosen, how do you know you are chosen? If you can't know you are chosen, then how do you apply eternal security to your beliefs?

Again, what is your alternative? That you made a decision? Why is that anything more tangible than a feeling? Your personal decision about anything means nothing.

If you think it means something, show me with scripture. Where does it say in the Bible that we can know we are children of God because we decided something?

 

[menageriekeeper]

Glad you asked Npet, cause I do have an alternative.

I'd still like better info on how Cals know they are chosen except for the Romans verse. Unfortunately Isaiah also failed to read my last paragraph where I stated I understood that eternal security could be argued from either point of view which is what the verses from John seemed to apply to. If I have somehow misapplied them or not applied them to the process of knowing you have been chosen, someone needs to point it out to me.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to post my alternative view to how one knows one is chosen from a nonCal point of view. I'll be back to do that later today or maybe tomorrow. I don't know just how my day will go, but only have a few minutes right now. DH is calling!

 

[skypair]

What does scripture say?


John 6:44 No one can [2] come to Me unless the Father who sent Me [1] draws him; [3] and I will raise him up at the last day.

Parallel verse you fail to mention: John 6:40 - "And this is the will of him that sent me, [1] that every one which seeth the Son [drawn], and [2] believeth on him [come], may have everlasting life: [3] and I will raise him up at the last day."

Now some "drawn" don't "come." That's John 6:36 - "But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me [drawn], and believe not [didn't come]."

See how that works, npeterely??

skypair

 

[Isaiah40:28]

See how that works

You mean how you add you own words in brackets that aren't actually there?
Yeah, that's pretty neat.

LOL

 

[npetreley]

You mean how you add you own words in brackets that aren't actually there?
Yeah, that's pretty neat.

LOL

Yeah, I thought that was [not] very clever, too.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Glad you asked Npet, cause I do have an alternative.

I'd still like better info on how Cals know they are chosen except for the Romans verse. Unfortunately Isaiah also failed to read my last paragraph where I stated I understood that eternal security could be argued from either point of view which is what the verses from John seemed to apply to. If I have somehow misapplied them or not applied them to the process of knowing you have been chosen, someone needs to point it out to me.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to post my alternative view to how one knows one is chosen from a nonCal point of view. I'll be back to do that later today or maybe tomorrow. I don't know just how my day will go, but only have a few minutes right now. DH is calling!

It's kind of hard to point out how you've misapplied the verses from John when you never discussed your interpretation of them.
You discarded them and went on to ask about a person can be certain of their election. And then didn't like it that only one verse from Romans was brought to the table.
Perhaps the passages from John should be revisited by you in their immediate context to help you in your study.