security

[skypair]

You mean how you add you own words in brackets that aren't actually there?
Yeah, that's pretty neat.

Just trying to inject "Calvin-speak" so you wouldn't be able to miss what was said. See, when you spend too long with your jargon, you forget what scripture really says.

This was, BTW, taken from the same passage, same topic, that you misinterpret by excerpting it to begin with.

But I'm sensing that the only "fruit" you'll be growing on this thread is sour grapes.

skypair

 

[menageriekeeper]

Sorry Isaiah, I didn't mean to abandon this thread. I still don't have the time to deal with it seriously and may not have the time for a few days yet. Right now I'm only finding time to read a bit and maybe make short posts so folks know I'm still among the living. My life has been like this here lately. Nothing to do for days and then I'm running circles with no end in sight.

I will get back to this, but it is pretty deep and I want to make sure I have sufficient time to frame my posts.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Okay, I think I'm back at least for a bit. I'm going to start where I left off by quoting Npetrely:

Again, what is your alternative? That you made a decision? Why is that anything more tangible than a feeling? Your personal decision about anything means nothing.

If you think it means something, show me with scripture. Where does it say in the Bible that we can know we are children of God because we decided something?

This is my alternative to a mere feeling:

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Mic 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. Mic 7:19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea. Mic 7:20 Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.


Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)

1Jo 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


See to my freewill way of thinking, if I do what I am supposed to (believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved) then He will do what He has promised to do. (all the above) So I know I am saved not because I did anything to deserve it, anything to accomplish it, but because He said if I believed He would. I think this is the definition of faith.

But Cals seem to believe that they can be saved without belief because if God has chosen them then they will believe, which is to my mind a bit of circular reasoning. So I ask again, how does a Calvinst know they are saved/chosen.

We have moved past the issue of eternal securty. I get that Calvinists also believe this. I just don't understand how Calvinists can apply eternal security to themselves if they can't explain how they know they are saved/chosen.



<posted with the understanding that I may be here today and gone tomorrow. If I am, I'll be back as time allows>

 

[npetreley]

See to my freewill way of thinking, if I do what I am supposed to (believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved) then He will do what He has promised to do. (all the above) So I know I am saved not because I did anything to deserve it, anything to accomplish it, but because He said if I believed He would.

You are contradicting yourself.

"So I know I am saved not because I did anything to deserve it, anything to accomplish it, but because He said if I believed [did what I was supposed to do to deserve it], He would.

You believed. In return, you got your reward for believing, that is, salvation.

But Cals seem to believe that they can be saved without belief because if God has chosen them then they will believe, which is to my mind a bit of circular reasoning. So I ask again, how does a Calvinst know they are saved/chosen.

I've answered this, although I could answer it with the same answer you used. We believed. The only difference is that you take credit for believing. We don't.

We have moved past the issue of eternal securty. I get that Calvinists also believe this. I just don't understand how Calvinists can apply eternal security to themselves if they can't explain how they know they are saved/chosen.

We can explain how we're chosen, and that we're chosen. We can't explain WHY we're chosen and another is not, other than what God said. He said we're foreknown (known intimately beforehand). If you want to know any more about the why, ask God. He's the One who makes the decisions.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Well I think I'm a little confused. We're held accountable for NOT believing, but God doesn't hold us accountable for believing? How's that work?

And none of this still explains how a Calvinist knows for sure that he/she has been chosen, if you can't take the credit for your belief. Have you really believed or do you just think you've believed? <hypothetical question, guys, don't get all upset.> What I mean is this: if God choses for you how do you know you have made the choice? It's almost like saying well my mother said I was a Christian so I must be one. It doens't work.

 

[npetreley]

Have you really believed or do you just think you've believed?

How about you? Have you believed, or do you think you believed? Does thinking you did it yourself make you more sure? Why? What if you didn't "believe" of your own free will but you just think you did? How would you know? What difference does it make to your security?

What I mean is this: if God choses for you how do you know you have made the choice? It's almost like saying well my mother said I was a Christian so I must be one. It doens't work.

That's just plain silly. Your mother isn't God. She doesn't get to decide.

When you're chosen to play on a baseball team, how do you know you were chosen? After all, you didn't choose to join that particular team of your own free will - so how do you know which team you're on? It's impossible, I tell ya. --- Well, that's what you're saying.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Well the difference is this: If I believe, consciencely, wholeheartedly, unreservedly, then God had promised certain things. Even if God choses me out of all the poor folks around me to draw and reveal Himself to, I still have to respond positively. So I'm not relying on my own choice, as I could chose to save myself by bouncing up an down and it wouldn't do me any good, but am relying instead on God to do what He promised. The power isn't in the choice but in the promise.

In your baseball example, if you were chosen for next years Braves team, would you not have to accept the position?

Gotta go to choir practice!

 

[npetreley]

In your baseball example, if you were chosen for next years Braves team, would you not have to accept the position?

That's why I like to avoid analogies, and shouldn't have resorted to one. I was actually thinking of kids lined up, waiting to be picked for teams.

Well, you keep taking credit for your decision. Fine with me. I honestly don't see how that makes you more sure of your salvation, but that's your issue. You keep telling us believers in the doctrines of grace that we can't be as sure of our salvation. Yet, I'm 100% sure. Go figure.

 

[Amy.G]

I don't see what difference your theology makes (Cal vs. non cal) when it comes to assurrance of your salvation.

It is the same no matter what side you're on. When the Holy Spirit indwells you, you change. You have a desire for God and the things of God. You love His word. You hate sin. You want to please God. You have an actual relationship with God. You confess Christ publically. You exhibit the fruits of the Spirit. I could go on, but you get the point.

If you didn't change, then you aren't saved. Simple as that.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Amy, you ever seen someone act saved? They say all the right thing, do all the work in the church and so. Seem to be showing fruit, right? I've seen some of these folks come to the realization after years of doing these things and say "I was never saved, I've never experienced Christ, I need to accept Christ now!"

How does that happen?

Calvinists say if you are chosen you will accept. I want to know a simple thing: how does one know they are chosen and that salvation is being offered to them, how do they explain the difference between play acting salvation and being saved if there is no responisibility on the part of man.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, you ever seen someone act saved? They say all the right thing, do all the work in the church and so. Seem to be showing fruit, right? I've seen some of these folks come to the realization after years of doing these things and say "I was never saved, I've never experienced Christ, I need to accept Christ now!"

How does that happen?

Calvinists say if you are chosen you will accept. I want to know a simple thing: how does one know they are chosen and that salvation is being offered to them, how do they explain the difference between play acting salvation and being saved if there is no responisibility on the part of man.

Well, as far as judging whether someone else is saved, we can't make that distinction, only God knows. But, when it's our own salvation, we should know. I can tell you that when I was saved, it was a supernatural experience. My husband says the same thing. It's not about "doing" stuff in the church. It's about what change has taken place in your heart.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Do you mind describing what facilitated that change?

 

[Amy.G]

Do you mind describing what facilitated that change?

God. I don't know how else to explain it. Some friends talked to me about the Bible and shared scripture and I couldn't get it out of my mind and then one night while I was alone...boom! I wanted God more than anything else I've ever wanted and that was that. I was immediately excited beyond belief and couldn't get enough of Him.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Would you have considered it, if your friends hadn't brought it up? (or am I misunderstanding and you were already looking? if so, why were you looking)

 

[Isaiah40:28]

MK,
You seem to assume many things about the Calvinist position that are not actually true.
This phrase is the latest I read from your posts:

if there is no responisibility on the part of man.

I think it would be really helpful for you to find some articles written by someone in the Reformed camp explaining what is understood and taught from the Bible for all issues pertaining to eternal security and election.

I recommend this website, www.monergism.com as a great place to get some understanding of what the Calvinist or Reformed position is on these and other biblical issues.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Isaiah, in light of the Primitive Baptist thread, I'm begining to realize that there are about as many flavors of Calvinists as there are freewillers! :laugh: Some of us are much closer in our beliefs than we let on. Shocking thought!

Edited to say that I think my curiosity here is satisfied. Maybe......

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Isaiah, in light of the Primitive Baptist thread, I'm begining to realize that there are about as many flavors of Calvinists as there are freewillers! :laugh: Some of us are much closer in our beliefs than we let on. Shocking thought!

Edited to say that I think my curiosity here is satisfied. Maybe......

Your curiousity may be satisfied, but I don't think your actual understanding is.
No offense is meant, but your statements show areas that need correcting about the Calvinist's beliefs.

 

[Amy.G]

Would you have considered it, if your friends hadn't brought it up? (or am I misunderstanding and you were already looking? if so, why were you looking)

I can remember when I was about 6 years old wondering about God. Typical questions, like where did He come from, ect. I wasn't raised in church. Neither of my parents seemed to have much belief. Actually, my father had zero belielf. I went to church on occasion with friends, but that was about it.
When I was 7, my mother gave me a New Testament. I loved that little Bible even though I couldn't understand a word of it. In recent years I've asked her why she gave it to me and she said she doesn't really know.
I have always believed in God and I guess you could say at times I was seeking Him. But, I really believe He was seeking me. Not sure why He would want me, but He's got me.

 

[menageriekeeper]

No offense is meant, but your statements show areas that need correcting about the Calvinist's beliefs.

That's why I ask weird questions at times.