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Seeker Sensitive: Is It Biblical?
- Thread starter MikeinGhana
- Start date
Johnv,
for me, I dont avoid Catholicism because of some insecurity within my own inner faith. Its because I abolutely hate what its done to those around me.
Beyond that, perhaps I wasn't clear....my gut reaction would be to NOT go towards more pomp and ceremony, but that doesnt mean that I couldnt be talked into it if it were indeed something that would be more effective within the local culture.
for me, I dont avoid Catholicism because of some insecurity within my own inner faith. Its because I abolutely hate what its done to those around me.
Beyond that, perhaps I wasn't clear....my gut reaction would be to NOT go towards more pomp and ceremony, but that doesnt mean that I couldnt be talked into it if it were indeed something that would be more effective within the local culture.
guitarpreacher
New Member
Bapmom,
Guys is everyone. If I only meant dudes, I would have said dudes.
As for my friends church - if he preaches the Gospel uncompromised, and people are saved, what difference does it make how he looks. Personally, I rather get poked in the eye with a stick than sit through anything that formal. But that's just my preference. Which is what this is really all about. In fact, if you were to ask my friend, he doesn't like having "high church" much more than I would. But for the community that God has placed him in, that's what it takes to reach the lost.
If you truly have a heart for the lost, you'll go outside your comfort zone. Here's a question for you "guys". How many of you would take a motorcycle ride with a lesbian couple in order gain their trust and win an opportunity to share your faith?
Guys is everyone. If I only meant dudes, I would have said dudes.
As for my friends church - if he preaches the Gospel uncompromised, and people are saved, what difference does it make how he looks. Personally, I rather get poked in the eye with a stick than sit through anything that formal. But that's just my preference. Which is what this is really all about. In fact, if you were to ask my friend, he doesn't like having "high church" much more than I would. But for the community that God has placed him in, that's what it takes to reach the lost.
If you truly have a heart for the lost, you'll go outside your comfort zone. Here's a question for you "guys". How many of you would take a motorcycle ride with a lesbian couple in order gain their trust and win an opportunity to share your faith?
MikeinGhana
New Member
How about a church that will bring in Miss America to draw a crowd? How about a church that will give away free cruises by drawing? How about a church that has bingo night? Are these methods that should be approved?
All about Grace
New Member
There's nothing inherently wrong with any of these things, therefore they are a matter of preference.
There is no black and white answers on these issues. Again the key is scriptural violation. If it does not violate Scripture, you cannot say such things are inherently wrong. Unwise? Perhaps. Extreme at times? Perhaps. Unnecessary? Maybe. But the bottom line is this: each church is using methods. Some are overusing them. Most are underusing them. Balance and understanding your culture becomes the key.
This issue transcends the seeker-sensitive issue. I can argue as strongly that it is wrong for churches to withdraw from culture and to use methods that are irrelevant.
guitarpreacher
New Member
We held a youth retreat once and had a former Miss Arkansas as our main speaker. We did "True Love Waits" and she couldn't have done a better job. I'm sure some of the kids that were there came because she is young and beautiful. If I had taught instead of her, I'm sure there would have been some who would have stayed away because I'm not so young and beautiful. (okay, I'm old and homely) Who cares why they came - they heard the Gospel once they were there.
We had an event once where we gave away a dvd player. (That's much closer to our budget than a cruise) The object of the give away was to get a prospect list. In order to register for the dvd player, you had to give your name address and phone number. Instant prospect list. One family became part of our church from that event. Dad was a Christian but had been out of church for years. Mom and 2 sons were not Christians. The oldest son was the first to commit to Christ, then mom and younger son. Baptized mom and younger son at the same time. I would do the event and give away a prize in a heartbeat to have the same results. And I'd probably go for the cruise if I could afford it.
I would probably have a problem with the bingo night, just because it's a little too close to gambling for my comfort. I wouldn't throw rocks at somebody else that decided to try it.
MikeinGhana
New Member
So, there are things that cross the line, like Bingo Night. That is a start. I was beginning to think I misunderstood you to say that there is no method that crosses the line as long as the message was not compromised. My mistake guys.
All about Grace
New Member
This discussion is really akward because most of the seeker churches I know (which are many) are not involved in the kind of bus route mentality you describe here. They believe in excellence and doing things effectively and if that happens people will come.
If you give away a cruise and do not engage people when they are there, they will not return.
If you give away a cruise and do not engage people when they are there, they will not return.
It's all about the motives that are at the heart of the methods. If it is to reach the lost with the truth then God is pleased. If it is just to fill pews and appeal to the flesh then God is not pleased. Just because a church has thousands of members doesn't prove that God is one of them! 
This is not scriptural. The means are just as important as the motives. When Uzzah grabbed the Ark of hte Covenant, it was with superb motives. But he died. Paul, in 1 and 2 Corinthians, makes it clear that the motives are not the most important thing, the purity of the gospel is.
guitarpreacher
New Member
Pastor Larry,
You imlpy that somehow being strategic in your methods compromises the purity of the Gospel. I disagree with that assumption.
When Uzzah grabbed the Ark of the Covenant, he was in direct, willfull violation of God's command. Don't see how you can apply that to music styles or outreach events.
You imlpy that somehow being strategic in your methods compromises the purity of the Gospel. I disagree with that assumption.
When Uzzah grabbed the Ark of the Covenant, he was in direct, willfull violation of God's command. Don't see how you can apply that to music styles or outreach events.
No, I didn't imply that at all. You inferred it
... and illegitimately I might add. I think we should be strategic. That wasn't the point. My point was about motives. More than motives matter. As I previously said, teh standard is obedience. The challenge is deciding what fits into that. Part of hte problem of modernity and post modernity (or post foundationalism as many of hte prefer) is the failure to "cross the bridge" of biblical teaching. They see the first century meaning. What they cannot, or do not, do is cross the bridge to see what in teh 21st century is like the first century.
I didn't, did I? If fact, I don't recall saying anything in this whole thread about "music styles or outreach events." Feel free to correct me. I could have forgotten something I said. But here, you brought that up. I didn't apply my statements to anything but the issue of motives.
Now, do some aspects of music styles and outreach events fit the discussion of obedience? That is the discussion we should be having.
It is the will of the Father that none that He gives us to lead into eternity should perish. (Jn 7: 39)
If I am not seeking the lost, then I am in DIRECT disobedience.
Ironically, I am not a fan of most seeker sensitive methods. But, I know that most traditional methods are not effectively reaching the lost. 2% of churches are actually leading their denominations in real (not transfer) growth. That is not a very good number.
If I am not seeking the lost, then I am in DIRECT disobedience.
Ironically, I am not a fan of most seeker sensitive methods. But, I know that most traditional methods are not effectively reaching the lost. 2% of churches are actually leading their denominations in real (not transfer) growth. That is not a very good number.
*******This is not scriptural. The means are just as important as the motives. When Uzzah grabbed the Ark of hte Covenant, it was with superb motives. But he died. Paul, in 1 and 2 Corinthians, makes it clear that the motives are not the most important thing, the purity of the gospel is. *********
Sorry, I didn't know we were discussing methods that are disobedient to God's direct command. I thought we were discussing legitimate attention-getters of the lost so the gospel could be preached. Sort of like Christ feeding the multitudes. After He did this they continued to follow Him and listen to His teachings. Some just wanted a free meal, but others truly benefited spiritually. If the methods and programs are carnal then it is wrong.
Sorry, I didn't know we were discussing methods that are disobedient to God's direct command. I thought we were discussing legitimate attention-getters of the lost so the gospel could be preached. Sort of like Christ feeding the multitudes. After He did this they continued to follow Him and listen to His teachings. Some just wanted a free meal, but others truly benefited spiritually. If the methods and programs are carnal then it is wrong.
MikeinGhana
New Member
Why do we diffrentiate between direct comands and Biblical principles when we talk about methods and motives? Isaiah said not to call that which is good evil and that which is evil good. We may disagree with what is evil and what is good when it comes to styles and preferences. There have been statements made in this thread that said that there is no method that crosses the line as long as the motive and message are not compromised. I think Uzaah was a great and pertinent example of this very thing.
In your post, you made no distinction. Secondly, we have yet to even entertain the issue of what exactly is obedience to God. BTW, "direct commands" aren't the only thing we need to be obedient to. We need to be obedient to all of Scripture.
Is it possible that some of the methods used by seeker churches are disobedience, even though they mean well?
Perhaps we should be asking ourselves...
What methods did Jesus use???
1. Jesus always spoke the language of the people- the Bible says the common people heard him gladly. Can we relate the gospel to those of the world without using our 'church talk'?
2. Jesus went to their celebrations- religious and otherwise. Too many times we as Christians are obsessed with getting lost folks to where WE are rather than going to where THEY are. I have been criticized by brethren here in Mexico for attending family celebrations, such as weddings, where alcohol was served (although I did not partake), amongst other things (dancing, etc.) It has been said- 'They do not care how much you know until they know how much you care.' That is so true.
3. Jesus was 'seeker-sensitive'. 'He must needs go through Samaria' He related to people based on their NEEDS, not their WANTS. I can see giving away food or preparing a meal as a means to reach the lost and share the gospel. But a DVD player? A car?
We could have a hundred here in church every Sunday if we gave away a $100 bill each week, and I guarantee you they would hear the Gospel, BUT...
WDJD?
Is our job here to POPULARIZE the Gospel or PREACH it?
Just thinking out loud early in the morning.
What methods did Jesus use???
1. Jesus always spoke the language of the people- the Bible says the common people heard him gladly. Can we relate the gospel to those of the world without using our 'church talk'?
2. Jesus went to their celebrations- religious and otherwise. Too many times we as Christians are obsessed with getting lost folks to where WE are rather than going to where THEY are. I have been criticized by brethren here in Mexico for attending family celebrations, such as weddings, where alcohol was served (although I did not partake), amongst other things (dancing, etc.) It has been said- 'They do not care how much you know until they know how much you care.' That is so true.
3. Jesus was 'seeker-sensitive'. 'He must needs go through Samaria' He related to people based on their NEEDS, not their WANTS. I can see giving away food or preparing a meal as a means to reach the lost and share the gospel. But a DVD player? A car?
We could have a hundred here in church every Sunday if we gave away a $100 bill each week, and I guarantee you they would hear the Gospel, BUT...
WDJD?
Is our job here to POPULARIZE the Gospel or PREACH it?
Just thinking out loud early in the morning.